D&D 5E 5e Warlord Demand Poll

How much demand is there for a dedicated warlord class??

  • I am a player/DM of 5e and would like a dedicated warlord class

    Votes: 61 26.3%
  • I am a player/DM of 4e and would like a dedicated warlord class

    Votes: 2 0.9%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and am satisfied with WotC's current offerings for a warlord-esque class

    Votes: 67 28.9%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and am satisfied with the current 3rd party offerings for a warlord class

    Votes: 6 2.6%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and I don't care whether WotC designs a warlord class for 5e

    Votes: 94 40.5%
  • I am a player/DM of 4e and I don't care whether WotC designs a warlord class for 5e

    Votes: 2 0.9%

  • Poll closed .
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pemerton

Legend
for the warlord to "mimic" such effects, he has to be able to literally contradict what the DM just said. He effectively gets to re-write the story as a class power, be it "he was only mostly dead (even though he failed three death saves)" or "hey mister archer, you can shoot 10,000 arrows in your life, but without me telling you to, you can never silence a foe with a well-placed arrow-in-the-throat." You might as well have name the warlord resource "plot points" and expand it basically spending them to contradict the DM. ["The door is locked." "I spend 2 plot points. The door isn't locked" (Knock).]
And at that level of abstraction, what is the Shield spell? Or any other interrupt-type effect.

It's in the nature of RPG mechanics that the player gets to affect the fiction. At it's in the nature of reaction/interrupt-type effects that the player gets to contradict or deny something the GM was putting out there.

The warlord isn't anything special in this respect.

EDIT: Of course the Shield spell has some associated fiction. So would the warlord - I assume that's obvious, but maybe it's necessary to spell it out.
 

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Remathilis

Legend
And at that level of abstraction, what is the Shield spell? Or any other interrupt-type effect.

It's in the nature of RPG mechanics that the player gets to affect the fiction. At it's in the nature of reaction/interrupt-type effects that the player gets to contradict or deny something the GM was putting out there.

The warlord isn't anything special in this respect.
It's a fine point, but for me, it's a matter of overcoming the obstacle, rather than contradicting it.

Let's stick with knock for a moment. With knock, the door was locked, and now magically it's not. The plot point example, the player uses a resource to basically say "No DM, you're wrong." The door was never locked. Reality changed. There is no "unlocking" it just rewrites locked with unlocked.

Now, back to the Warlord. Let's give him a power called "Raise the Fallen" that brings a dead PC to life in 1 round after death. (Revivify). This again is a plot ability that contradicts the DM (your PC died), vs magic that actually reverses the action. I'm ok with magic reversing the effect, I'm not a fan of a class flat out saying "nuh-uh".
 

mellored

Legend
[MENTION=6801209]mellored[/MENTION], [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION]

Whether its rationed by actions; by rest-based-recovery manoeuvre/inspiration dice; by rest-based-recovery points - as I said, I don't know. But these strike me as first and foremost technical questions (as to what's possible), to then be integrated with flavour questions (what does the fiction look like, and is it the fiction we want?).
I agree.

And to me, it makes sense for it to be action oriented. Blow by blow you need to get in there and support your troops.
Both figuratively and literally.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Tony, I can't help that the forum logic doesn't work and is screwed up. But you're on my Ignore list, so I can't read any of your posts, so you might as well stop quoting and tagging me.
 

mellored

Legend
Now, back to the Warlord. Let's give him a power called "Raise the Fallen" that brings a dead PC to life in 1 round after death. (Revivify). This again is a plot ability that contradicts the DM (your PC died), vs magic that actually reverses the action. I'm ok with magic reversing the effect, I'm not a fan of a class flat out saying "nuh-uh".
It's not "nuh-uh". It's "You where dead for a moment.". Not an uncommon trope.

Heck, 75% of "deaths" on TV can be reversed with CPR.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199606133342406
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I disagree.

First, there's already plenty of at-will support in the game.
Help action, grapple, viscous mockery, mantle of command, paladin's aura, guidance, warlocks repelling blast, light, minor illusion, resistance, spare the dying, blessings of the trickster, and any level 1 or 2 wizards spell. Not to mention, things become effectively at-will. Mid level clerics don't avoid casting bless because of spell slot limitations (concentration is an at-will resource).

Second, do you really think the at-will help action that everyone is breaking the game? Does the game break down because wizards get at-will feather fall? Because I rarely see anyone use them. Even a mastermind rogue will often forgo helping to TWF (when he misses his first attack).

If your option was to use your action to grant everyone +5 AC and saves against a dragons attack, or to kill it, which one will save you more HP?
I XP'd this not because I agree with it, but because those are all good points, and I have no valid counter-points.

I'm not sanguine about it, though. It seems like resource-management and daily (and other recharge rates) resources are too central to D&D in general, and support dynamics, specifically, to be just cast aside like that. But it's just a feeling.

The only thing you don't want at-will is healing.
Ie: Regeneration, Useable on Others. Agreed.

It's in the nature of RPG mechanics that the player gets to affect the fiction. At it's in the nature of reaction/interrupt-type effects that the player gets to contradict or deny something the GM was putting out there.
Sure, absolutely. And, it's the intended nature of 5e to be very DM-Empowering. So, while it's fine for PCs to have abilities and backstories and spells and take actions and all, all of which affect the fiction, whether they can contribute to the DM's domain - the plot, the actions of NPCs, the facts of the world outside their immediate/direct influence - is something the DM should have to allow when it's OK, rather than revoke when it's not. Players need to be set up to be grateful, rather than disappointed, so as not to tarnish their trust in the DM.

(I know, illusionism, force, agency - I get it, you're not wrong. But I'm OK with those things, and, I think, it's the bed 5e has made for itself - knowingly, even, and in which it is reclining comfortably.)


Rather like skill checks, really. It's not like something has to be major, like returning the dead to life, for the DM to have (need) ultimate control over it in 5e. Something as mundane as opening a door is the DM's to declare successful, require a roll, or judge impossible.

Spells are push-buttons or coupons or however you want to think of it, that simply do what they say on the tin, and the DM vetting every spell like he does every skill check & action probably wouldn't go over well, because there's an expectation of privilege when a spell is cast. There's no such expectation when trying to shout the probably-mostly-dead back to probably-somewhat-alive, so that formal DM-may-I process could probably be unobtrusively inserted in front of such abilities to head off any such 're-writing the story' issues before they ever came up. Like "..it may be that all who seem dead are not truly dead, at least not yet, and that the devoted, the determined, the heroic may yet miraculously save them..." even if only flavor text, would imply that the ability is something that may be usable, when the situation warrants - and the arbiter of the situation is always: the DM.
 
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Hussar

Legend
Thing is, why are we even discussing the idea of warlords resurrecting? It's not like that's a Warlord thing in any case. Warlords couldn't res before, so, why should they gain that ability? Sure, it's no longer a cleric only thing, but, meh, is it required that warlords have it?

But, in any case, as [MENTION=6801209]mellored[/MENTION] says, it's hardly outside the trope for a "Breathe, dammit, breathe!" power for warlords. Sure, maybe it has a shorter time limitation than raise dead or resurrect, but, that's not a major issue.

I mean, take healing for example. One homebrew rule I saw was field surgery. Basically, the surgeon deals on point off your max HP for every d8+1 of healing. Would work rather well for warlords IMO. Sure, you can heal a lot more often than a cleric, but, it does cost you max HP which wouldn't return until a long rest. Say a high level PC loses 100 hp. That's going to take about 20d8+20 to heal (give or take). So, now your PC has 80 max HP until a long rest. That's a significant cost. Nice, unique mechanics for our warlord that fits very well into the game. The only problem I see with it is it is rather fiddly. You have to track your current max Hp all the time and not forget to put them back on after a long rest. Not insurmountable, but, a bit fiddly.

As far as removing status effects like poison or disease, you could simply use the same mechanic. Every HP lost grants a saving throw against the effect. Repeat until the character makes his save.

It looks, from the quotes that I'm seeing, that [MENTION=50658]Rem[/MENTION]althalis is nudging into dissociated mechanics territory. The idea that each action is completely discrete and we're not allowed to retcon anything. But, that's not even true in 5e. There's all sorts of reactive, non-magical abilities that have the ability to rewrite the actions after the fact. Lucky feat for one. Battlemasters and Rogues can both mitigate (although not negate) hits. The Mastermind has this ability:

SCAG said:
Misdirection
Beginning at 13th level, you can sometimes cause an-
other creature to suffer an attack meant for you. When
you are targeted by an attack while a creature within 5
feet of you is granting you cover against that attack, you
can use your reaction to have the attack target that crea-
ture instead of you

So, right there, we have a "nuh-uh" non magical power. I'm quite sure you can find others. This whole line of reasoning just ignores what has come out for the game over the past few years.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Thing is, why are we even discussing the idea of warlords resurrecting?
Some sort of strawgent or tangeman or something about Warlord == Cleric, I think?
It's not like that's a Warlord thing in any case. Warlords couldn't res before,
They could learn the ritual. And the 2e Warlord* 'Faith in a Friend' special ability could restore the very recently 'dead.' ;)
so, why should they gain that ability?
Why not? If we can shout hands back on, we should be able to shout hearts beating again. ;)

Sure, it's no longer a cleric only thing, but, meh, is it required that warlords have it?
It wouldn't be terrible if it were an option. Either a 'wahoo' option the DM could allow, or just a choice players could choose not to go for if they found it a bit much.

One homebrew rule I saw was field surgery.
I'm as perplexed by the idea of a Warlord-Surgeon as others are by the whole shouting back to life thing. Oviously for different reasons: it just doesn't fit the concept. Nominally, it's 'non-magical healing,' but the warlord concept isn't non-magical healer, it's /function/ is non-magical support.

nudging into dissociated mechanics territory. The idea that each action is completely discrete and we're not allowed to retcon anything. But, that's not even true in 5e. There's all sorts of reactive, non-magical abilities that have the ability to rewrite the actions after the fact. Lucky feat for one. Battlemasters and Rogues can both mitigate (although not negate) hits. The Mastermind has this ability:
So, right there, we have a "nuh-uh" non magical power. I'm quite sure you can find others. This whole line of reasoning just ignores what has come out for the game over the past few years.
Nod. While 5e does come down firmly on the side of DM Empowerment, it doesn't come down squarely on one 'creative agenda' (like the process sim for which such things might be an issue, nor the narrativist for which they might be bread & butter). The DM could easily take things more one way than the other, just be inserting his judgement before the power's use rather than after.

Oh, on the question of 'later establishing you weren't so dead afterall,' a player knows, when he fails that third death save, that his character is dead, but neither the character (assuming he's unconscious) nor the other characters (PC or N) necessarily do. So it's really only meta-knowledge that's being re-written, not character knowledge - that is, the immersion-whapping disconnect between the player and character is already there, created by the death save mechanic. FWIW.






























* that I made up in response to an odd question on the WotC board, dashed off in 2hrs, and re-posted here, years later:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ior-editions&p=6729990&viewfull=1#post6729990

Some day I may even do the 1e Warlord "Unofficial NPC Class." :D
 
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pemerton

Legend
It's a fine point, but for me, it's a matter of overcoming the obstacle, rather than contradicting it.

Let's stick with knock for a moment. With knock, the door was locked, and now magically it's not. The plot point example, the player uses a resource to basically say "No DM, you're wrong." The door was never locked. Reality changed. There is no "unlocking" it just rewrites locked with unlocked.

Now, back to the Warlord. Let's give him a power called "Raise the Fallen" that brings a dead PC to life in 1 round after death. (Revivify). This again is a plot ability that contradicts the DM (your PC died), vs magic that actually reverses the action. I'm ok with magic reversing the effect, I'm not a fan of a class flat out saying "nuh-uh".
Shield doesn't reverse the effect. It doesn't heal the wound. It undoes the action, by interposing an AC bonus at interrupt speed.

Here's the wording (from SRD p 176):

Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you are hit by an attack . . . Until the start of your next turn, you have a +5 bonus to AC, including against the triggering attack . . .​

EDIT: And [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] has pointed to a whole lot more like this, including non-magical effects. (Though in this context, being magic or not shouldn't make any difference, given that in both cases what we're talking about is a player getting to contradict the fiction that GM otherwise was in the process of establishing.)
 
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