D&D 5E 5e Warlord Demand Poll

How much demand is there for a dedicated warlord class??

  • I am a player/DM of 5e and would like a dedicated warlord class

    Votes: 61 26.3%
  • I am a player/DM of 4e and would like a dedicated warlord class

    Votes: 2 0.9%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and am satisfied with WotC's current offerings for a warlord-esque class

    Votes: 67 28.9%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and am satisfied with the current 3rd party offerings for a warlord class

    Votes: 6 2.6%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and I don't care whether WotC designs a warlord class for 5e

    Votes: 94 40.5%
  • I am a player/DM of 4e and I don't care whether WotC designs a warlord class for 5e

    Votes: 2 0.9%

  • Poll closed .
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Sacrosanct

Legend
Right.

There wasn't consensus on any single class or mechanic, during the playtest. And yet.

Has anyone actually argued:

"Well, there isn't consensus about X, therefore we should never do X".

No? Just Hussar making another strawman? Thought so.

As the person who has brought up the "there is no consensus" argument many times, I have never said that is a reason to not have the warlord. In pretty much every case, it has been in the context of pointing out the hypocrisy of people telling me that I can get what I want by mix-matching, but anyone who tells them they can do that with the warlord is arguing in bad faith ---OR---- someone arguing that it's objective fact that a person can't make a warlord in 5e (which is obviously untrue because since there's no consensus, we have lots of people who DO think you can do a warlord in 5e)

Then again, I imagine it's pretty easy to keep trying to position yourself as some sort of victim when you're making up arguments that no one has ever actually said (not you, but Hussar in the post you quoted).
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
Every single person arguing for a 5e warlord on these forums has explicitly expressed their willingness to compromise, and have acknowledged, usually without being prompted, that no class is going to port directly from one edition to another.
You can never say 'every single one' but, yeah, really close. ;)

And, profound compromises have already been made (maybe not willingly, but they happened, and we're not edition warring & burning books, are we?). The exclusion of the Warlord from the PH was a huge compromise, it's not part of the standard game, only those DMs who opt into it will see it impact their campaigns. On the other side, there are little mechanics here and there that might be representative of individual things a hypothetical Warlord might someday do, they add up to letting go of most of the more specific quasi-mechanical objections.

It just remains to go the rest of the way, and finally have the option of an official Warlord enter development.

Literally every single claim you make about other posters in this post is factually incorrect. Every. Last. One.
So in the end, I'm not even really sure who you think you're conversing with.
Could all just be one of those edition-war flashbacks. I get those sometimes. Very unpleasant.

I end up going back and editing a lot of posts. ;)

I'm arguing 2 linked, but separate things.

1: at-will support can be done. No mechanical reason why it couldn't be balanced. (Except healing, though at-will healing that reduced max HP could work). (Though there are still ways to limit something without doing x/day. Like "at the start of each battle", or "when you kill an enemy" or "you can only fool an enemy once", etc...) This applies equally to cantrips, invocations, or martial maneuvers.
OK, I'm seeing something, there. If an ability is at-will, in that the character can use it every round, all day, if he wanted to - you could stand there giving inspiring speeches to the daisies - but they have conditional requirements, then they're not really at-will. Similarly, they could consume other resources (HD are the stand-out candidate, obviously) in the process of enhancing them, then the ability is at-will, but the linkage to the game's attrition model and resource mechanics remains. The problem with that is that existing support characters bring resources, themselves. That could be tricky to get right... the boost given to the expended resources would have to be substantial.

2: it would fit the narritive. Getting in and supporting round by round, and not suddenly stopping and being unable to do it.
Meh. Abstraction is a legitimate thing in D&D, always has been. Any given tactical trick, combat maneuver, inspiring soliloquy or whatever is going to have moments when it'll work, and moments when it won't - be irrelevant the vast majority of the day spent out of combat. That could be modeled in extreme detail, or it could be abstracted all the way down to n/rest. Either extreme is legitimate and there's a fair universe of design space between. (And I'm glad we have professionals to sort it all out.)

2b: we have enough x/day based support classes (possibly including the mystic). Something different would be nice.
Being adequate support from a non-supernatural source was revolutionary enough - revolutionary enough to be sent to a gulag in 2010 and still be trying to get a meeting with your lawyer 7 years later. But, yes, while we're talking things that might be nice, sure. And, that overt mechanical distinctiveness, problematic as it might be in this case, is very much in keeping with 5e's class design philosophy, as evinced in the designs we've seen, IMHO.
 

mellored

Legend
OK, I'm seeing something, there. If an ability is at-will, in that the character can use it every round, all day, if he wanted to - you could stand there giving inspiring speeches to the daisies - but they have conditional requirements, then they're not really at-will. Similarly, they could consume other resources (HD are the stand-out candidate, obviously) in the process of enhancing them, then the ability is at-will, but the linkage to the game's attrition model and resource mechanics remains. The problem with that is that existing support characters bring resources, themselves. That could be tricky to get right... the boost given to the expended resources would have to be substantial.
Balance is all in the numbers.

"When an ally spend a hit die, they regain an +1/+2/+Int mod/+Cha Mod/twice as much/+half your level/three times as much hit points back."
Somewhere in there is too weak, somewhere too strong, and somewhere just right.

That could be modeled in extreme detail, or it could be abstracted all the way down to n/rest.
Yes, it could be, but that's not as fun.
Give someone an ability they can use in situation X, and they will start looking to create situation X. It adds to the character.

Assassins get a critical when they surprise someone, and they start playing like you think an should play like. They sneak, scout, and disguise themselves to get close to their targets. Give them X/rest you can score a critical hit, and they might as well play like a barbarian, just charging into a room.
Or give them at-will feather fall, and all of a sudden you find the whole party jumping off everything, or having the fighter grappling a monster and dragging it onto a rope bridge and then having the wizard burn so they fall.


Though, I agree, situations could be too detailed. If you only get it on a third Sunday under a full moon after having sacrificed 3 virgin goats.... yea. But I don't see that happening.
 

Satyrn

First Post
Though, I agree, situations could be too detailed. If you only get it on a third Sunday under a full moon after having sacrificed 3 virgin goats.... yea. But I don't see that happening.
Well of course not. That'd be a warlock feature
 

mellored

Legend
Well of course not. That'd be a warlock feature
Hehe, true. That would make warlocks (or other casters) more fun if their spells required some situational thing, rather than just push-button effects.
Fiend warlocks gain power by killing, enticing them to burn down an orphanage for power. (The THP kind of works for that, but I could see it taken further).
Light clerics getting more spells the more light they bring into dark places.
Artificers dismantling magic items for knowledge, which they can use to make new ones.
Something to make wizard go around putting monsters to get their components.


Hmm...

Anyone can cast a spell of any level, but they have extreme conditions that need to be met. (fireball takes bat guano, sulfur, and 10 minute casting time).
Being a wizard lets you take "short cuts", remove some of those conditions, and preparing spells ahead of time.
High-level spells (wish), still take a lot, even for a wizard.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Has anyone actually argued:

"Well, there isn't consensus about X, therefore we should never do X".

No? Just Hussar making another strawman? Thought so.

As the person who has brought up the "there is no consensus" argument many times, I have never said that is a reason to not have the warlord. In pretty much every case, it has been in the context of pointing out the hypocrisy of people telling me that I can get what I want by mix-matching, but anyone who tells them they can do that with the warlord is arguing in bad faith ---OR---- someone arguing that it's objective fact that a person can't make a warlord in 5e (which is obviously untrue because since there's no consensus, we have lots of people who DO think you can do a warlord in 5e)

Then again, I imagine it's pretty easy to keep trying to position yourself as some sort of victim when you're making up arguments that no one has ever actually said (not you, but Hussar in the post you quoted).

In those words? Probably not. But you are far from the only person that has brought up the relevance of consensus, and generally it's been used to suggest that "no potential design will please Warlord fans, because no two Warlord fans agree on what it should look like". Which is the same thing, in different wording.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
In those words? Probably not. But you are far from the only person that has brought up the relevance of consensus, and generally it's been used to suggest that "no potential design will please Warlord fans, because no two Warlord fans agree on what it should look like". Which is the same thing, in different wording.

Which is still nowhere near anyone saying that there should never be a warlord because there isn't consensus, which is the strawman Hussar was making.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Which is still nowhere near anyone saying that there should never be a warlord because there isn't consensus, which is the strawman Hussar was making.

I disagree. It's the same thing.

it necessarily suggests that it is not worthwhile to create a warlord class, and in fact that such a venture is a bad idea.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
In those words? Probably not.
Not in those exact words.

I just mean that the fans don't 100% agree on what it needs to turn out as. As I mentioned in other posts though, I agree with you that it is not a real block, just a reasonable concern someone might present if they had a real reason for not wanting the Warlord.
But, Lanliss is describing 'concerns' he's seen expressed, not his own.

And, of course (re-assembled from earlier quotes since I can no longer find the originals):

That seems to be the big disconnect in all of these threads. It is objective fact that everyone has a different idea as to what a warlord should look like. We see it in the posts, and we see it with all of the variations of the many warlord classes and subclasses people have created.
and
The problem with this, as I mentioned a few times in these threads, is that there is no consensus as to what the warlord should actually do, and how close 5e comes to that. It's all personal opinion. So why your gut feeling is that "b" is quite a bit and "a" is not very much, we have a range of opinions from people who think "b" is "totally fine and you can replicate everything" all the way to "it doesn't cover anything." I.e., I could literally say the opposite, and that "a" is very much, and "b" isn't a gap at all, and we're both just giving our opinions of our expectations.

Thus, that question isn't very productive either.

It is literally quite this simple, because the argument is literally the same between a and b: "Can I replicate the features I like from a class in 5e?" Everything else is subjective opinion on how close you can do that. So saying that you shouldn't tell someone they can do "X, Y, and Z options from the book to get close to the class" that does you want while telling someone else that they should do X, Y, and Z options from the book to get close to what they class they want, is contradictory in the best case, outright hypocritical in the worst case.

So unless you can get a consensus from everyone as to what the warlord can and should do, and a consensus of what a ninja can and should do, then your question is also non productive. What you're saying, and what manbearcat said above, boils down to, "My opinion is more important than your opinion, so you should do the thing I'm telling other people not to tell me."
To be fair, he's not saying "No consensus, therefor no Warlord" he's saying, "No consensus, so you can't even meaningfully discuss whether there should be a Warlord."
Not an argument against the Warlord, just a straight-up bid to stifle debate (to put it in context, [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] had taken his ninja thing seriously and demolished it as if it had been a real assertion of formal equivalency, rather than just a casually-stated opinion).
 
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Sacrosanct

Legend
I disagree. It's the same thing.

it necessarily suggests that it is not worthwhile to create a warlord class, and in fact that such a venture is a bad idea.

No, it's not even close. There isn't consensus on ANY class, as you even stated earlier. So you're trying to tell me that there are people who would argue against having any class in the game unless there is consensus? That's what is inferred if you are saying this:

"no potential design will please Warlord fans, because no two Warlord fans agree on what it should look like"

Is the same as this:

"Well, there isn't consensus about X, therefore we should never do X".

The bottom line is that no one made that argument, and not even close, regardless of the mental gymnastics to try to get there. Those two statements aren't remotely close to meaning the same thing.
 

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