D&D 5E Buffing the Champion Fighter

[Xeviat]

In recent threads about class balance, inevitably someone shows up and laments the poor Champion Fighter and it's place in the world. So, let's discuss it.

The Champion appeals to an old school style. That's fine. But it should still be comparable to the other Fighters. I'm not entirely convinced that the low level battle master is balanced against the Eldritch Knight, but I think that issue falls away at Tier 2.

So, the Champion is easier to compare against the battle master:

Level 3
Improved Critical vs Combat Superiority and Student of War.

Improved Critical is nifty. It feels good. I've heard of it being used in "crit fishing" builds, but those are multiclassers with Paladin. Student of War is a ribbon, so I'll table that.

Combat Superiority gives, at a minimum, 4d8 extra damage, no chance of miss, per Short Rest. Let's ignore the other effects of the basic "damage+effect" maneuvers, and the other maneuvers that are harder to compare and will just end with the battle master looking better.

Let's say the two are using Greatswords. Improved Critical is an extra 5% for an extra 2d6 damage (7). Combat Superiority is an extra 4d8 damage (18).

X * 7 * 0.05 = 18
X = 51.4

So, counting action surge, the Champion needs to make 52 attacks per short rest to equal the Battle master just in damage, and the battle master is getting trips or knock backs or disarms or frighteneds or other effects on these attacks. This isn't counting that battle master maneuvers do get bumped on crits too. Even if the fighters are getting opportunity Attacks every round, that's 25 rounds before their damage is balanced. And the Champion has nothing else.

Now, maybe the Fighters are half-orcs and they're using great axes instead. So it's an extra 5% for 2d12 damage (13) vs an extra 4d8 (18).

X * 13 * 0.05 = 18
X = 27.7

That's still a long time before damage is balanced. Even if the Champion gets an opportunity Attack every round, that's still 13 rounds of combat doing nothing but making attacks before they're balanced between short rests.

Okay, maybe the battle master is just OP at 3rd level (an argument I've made, see my thread on Eldritch Knight vs Battle Master).

At 5th level, the fighters get Extra Attack. At needing 52 or 28 attacks to be balanced, with action surge, that cuts us to 25 rounds, or 13 rounds for the half-orc. 17 or 9 if you're getting an opportunity Attack every round. I'm being hyperbolic with the OA's, but you should be able to see the issue.

At 7th level, the Champion gets Remarkable Athlete. At worse, this is a small bump to raw Str and Initiative checks (if they somehow had all proficiencies). At best, it's a small bump to 6 kinds of checks (raw Str, athletics, acrobatics, stealth, slight of hand, initiative) and a bunch of tools. Neat. The Battle Master gets Know Your Enemy, of which the utility is going to be based on the nature of your game. The Battle Master also gets another Superiority die, to 5d8 (22.5).

Not Half-Orc
X * 7 * 0.05 = 22.5
X = 64.3 (32 rounds, 21 with OAs every round)

Half-Orc
X * 13 * 0.05 = 22.5
X = 34.6 (17 rounds, 11 with OAs every round)

At 10th, things get more difficult to compare. The Champion, best case scenario, is picking up Defensive for +1 AC. The two characters are, from then on, much harder to compare because they aren't nearly identical. But let's push. The Battle Master's Superiority dice increase to d10s. 5d10 is 27.5.

Not Half-Orc
X * 7 * 0.05 = 27.5
X = 78.6 (39 rounds, 26 w/OAs)

Half-Orc
X * 13 * 0.05 = 27.5
X = 42.3 (20 rounds, 14 w/OAs)

11th level brings 3 attacks. That changes not half-orc to 26/19, and the half-orc to 14/10 rounds.

At 15th, the Champion gets Superior Critical, for crits on 18. The Battlemaster gets another Superiority Die, and recovers 1 at the start of combat if they're empty. Optimally, they now have 7d10 per short rest (38.5).

Not Half-Orc
X * 7 * 0.1 = 38.5
X = 55 (18 rounds, 13 with OAs)

Half-Orc
X * 13 * 0.1 = 38.5
X = 29.6 (9 rounds, 7 with OAs)

Remember, the optimal Champion has +1 AC at this point. Somewhere in here, between 10th and 15th, the characters are more or less balanced.

I'm not even going to look at 18th level. The Battle Master gets d12s, the Champion gets regeneration.

So, high level champions and Battle masters are more or less balanced. The moral seems to be "fight for advantage" and "get a weapon with extra damage dice" if you're a champion. Or "be a half-orc".

Maybe the Champion could use a ribbon at 3rd level to compare to the Battle Master's artisan's tools. Improved Critical is not worth a feat, so it should come with more. I've seen people suggest allowing Remarkable Athlete to stack with Proficiency, but not Expertise, so all Champions get the same benefits. I support that.

But this has just been a look at damage. Remember, the Battle Master's simple damage maneuvers have extra effects. The Riposte maneuver possibly adds more damage than the "smites".

Also, this does further convince me that the Battle Master has too many Superiority dice at low levels. But I'd hate to take away from them.

And as a last note, I am still thinking about Casters vs Non-Casters. That's a side thing.


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[MiraMels]

I've only really noticed Champion's being frustrating to play in games where there aren't enough total combat encounters to let the extra crit chance shine through.

If anything, buff the champion by giving them more non-combat abilities.

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[Xeviat]

I've only really noticed Champion's being frustrating to play in games where there aren't enough total combat encounters to let the extra crit chance shine through.


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And that's what I'm seeing. But the math shows that the "total combat encounters" number is really high at low levels. They need something more so they can't be compared so cut and dry at low levels.

 

[Satyrn]

In recent threads about class balance, inevitably someone shows up and laments the poor Champion Fighter and it's place in the world.

That someone is me.

I actually mean it jokingly. I do not think the champion fighter ought to be changed at all. It is the point of that subclass not to be bogged down by game mechanic decisions.

But the point of my joke is real - I'm trying to suggest that anyone working to make casters more mechanically versatile ought not to neglect the non-spellcasters. Leave the champion alone, though; t's the battlemaster fighter I think that should get the focus.

 

[Xeviat]

But the point of my joke is real - I'm trying to suggest that anyone working to make casters more mechanically versatile ought not to neglect the non-spellcasters. Leave the champion alone, though; t's the battlemaster fighter I think that should get the focus.

In what way? The nerf bat? More options?

 

[Gradine]

I second the Champion getting more non-combat abilities. Remarkable Athlete is a step in the right direction, but it's remarkably under-powered for what it's supposed to do. Making it stack with proficiency is the start of where you'd go towards fixing it. But I think I'd replace it with something else entirely (or something similar); adding half-proficiency to some checks but full proficiency to others is pretty fiddly for the "I hit it until it's not a problem anymore" class.

Honestly, I think the Battlemaster would be fixed by giving it a "cantrip" option; one or two signature maneuvers you can use at-will without having to expend a Superiority Die (but then also not getting the bonus from the die).

 

[Capn Charlie]

Having played with both a champion and battlemaster at the same table for long stretches of levels, I have to second that champion feels underwhelming in comparison. That being said, I want to preserve the simplicity of the class, and retain its passive ability mindset. I have considered everything from giving them a +1 hp/level, to giving them half proficiency in all saves.

I would love to give them out of combat abilities but the thematics of the class are so narrow it is a stretch. I mean, we could come up with some intimidate related effect, but I dunno. Combat is their shtick, and it might be best to let them shine there.

 

[The Old Crow]

I second the Champion getting more non-combat abilities. Remarkable Athlete is a step in the right direction, but it's remarkably under-powered for what it's supposed to do. Making it stack with proficiency is the start of where you'd go towards fixing it. But I think I'd replace it with something else entirely (or something similar); adding half-proficiency to some checks but full proficiency to others is pretty fiddly for the "I hit it until it's not a problem anymore" class.

I am thinking of adding swim speed and climb speed somewhere between 10" and 20". It would be useful both for moving around the battlefield and for exploration.

Honestly, I think the Battlemaster would be fixed by giving it a "cantrip" option; one or two signature maneuvers you can use at-will without having to expend a Superiority Die (but then also not getting the bonus from the die).

I want this. I would even go for a limited number that refresh at the beginning of combat.

 

[Mistwell]

I wouldn't mind a way for Champion fighters to trade a crit for some other effect. Like giving up crit damage to stun the foe for a round, or to disarm them of their weapon, or knock them prone, or a free grapple attempt.

Some more fighting styles to choose from might be nice too.

I'd like some other option for Remarkable Athlete, like expertise if you are proficient.

 

[Xeviat]

Having played with both a champion and battlemaster at the same table for long stretches of levels, I have to second that champion feels underwhelming in comparison. That being said, I want to preserve the simplicity of the class, and retain its passive ability mindset. I have considered everything from giving them a +1 hp/level, to giving them half proficiency in all saves.

I would love to give them out of combat abilities but the thematics of the class are so narrow it is a stretch. I mean, we could come up with some intimidate related effect, but I dunno. Combat is their shtick, and it might be best to let them shine there.

Well, lets see what we can come up with. +1 crit range is not worth a feat. I'm positive it isn't even worth half a feat. +2 to a primary ability score is worth a feat. +2 Str is going to be +1 attack, +1 damage, +1 to str checks, +1 to str saves, and some carrying capacity boost. So, +1 attack and damage could arguably be "half a feat". +1 crit range isn't even worth +1 attack because a crit isn't a full x2 damage. With a 65% hit rate, and crits as x2 damage, you deal about 70% average damage. With crits at about x1.5 damage, it's more like 67.5%.

So, if "Improved Critical" and "Superior Critical" came with a little something extra, that would be nice. But it would have to be simple. +1 hp per fighter level would be simple. That's half a feat (Toughness) right there. That's half of +2 to Con. And since +1 crit isn't quite worth +1 attack and damage, what if the champion got this at 3rd level: +1 hp per fighter level, +1 crit range, and +1 attack with weapon attacks. Would it be too tempting to poach? 3 level is a big dip.

Back to Remarkable Athlete, Expertise is a solid ability and it gives double proficiency in 2 skills or tools. Remarkable Athlete applies to up to 4 skills and a host of miscelanious and tool Str, Dex, and Con checks. Oh, and you get a jump bonus. That might be big enough. What if they got to Dash as a bonus action? That's remarkably athletic. Monks and Rogues get that.