D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Mercule]

Well that's why we write down the important changes & tell the new players about them. We've even been known to print off a copy of what they'll need to know.

But you know what? Even if we were using a completely homebrewed setting we'd have to make a similar effort anyways for this hypothetical noob....

Most groups I've known don't actually maintain exhaustive notes on stuff. They have some, but not on everything. The point is that there's pretty good odds something is going to get overlooked with as much canon as the Realms have. No amount of glib smugness is going to change that.

At least with a homebrew setting, you don't have to combat assumptions from novels or source books you don't even know exist. The theoretic noob was just a somewhat contrived example that I expected any reasonable person to be able to see as such and understand that there are a myriad of potential complications.

So your argument against using/altering the FR setting is what?

In a nutshell, the setting is a steaming pile of feces -- and that's it's best quality. To make it something else, you'd have to alter it to the point that be unrecognizable because the stench so thoroughly permeates it. That's just my opinion, though. You're more than welcome to your own.

Actually, that's not fair. I don't really hate the Realms. If there was a reasonable space within the D&D sphere where I could go to not have it thrust in front of me, I'd be more than happy to live and let live. Really, it's probably more a matter of a certain set of the fans that I have a problem with. There is a section on the Realms in an adventure for a completely different setting (CoS). This is a problem. Yet, there are those who will try to excuse it. It is an adventure for a different setting. Hooks for the Realms have no more place in it, regardless of excuse, than a section on how to get Eberron characters into a Realms-specific adventure would have there. AL be damned. There is absolutely no reason for a Ravenloft adventure to have hooks for the Realms, at least the Realms only. There is no reason for every book that's been published since the core three to either be an adventure tied to the Realms or a source book about the Realms or a source book that's named for a Realms personage/place. It's gotten old. It's gotten tired.

You want to know why people hate the Realms? It's because you cannot freaking escape it, no matter how much you try. The Realms are the Borg. They take everything over and turn it into themselves. There is no variety, only assimilation.

I just want to play the game I love. I don't want to have to continually convert stuff from a setting I'm indifferent to, at best. I don't want to have to wonder whether an adventure is easy to adapt or hard. I don't want to have to figure out whether a monster book is just using a name from the vast D&D IP or if it's a Realms source book. If it's specific to the Realms, put a bloody Realms logo on it. Then, make sure you're putting out at least as much stuff that doesn't have that logo on it as does have it. When Realms products go back to the 38% of the market they serve, I'll stop hating it.

 

[Mercule]

So what is it? Does Divine Power come from your belief or does it come from following the rules of the Church? What if something else appeared and started to give its followers bonus stuff that "normal" Clerics did not get from their church - suddenly this new religion starts to look pretty tempting. And what are the old Gods going to do about it? Nothing because they are too distant.

It's another skill that can be learned, just like arcane magic. The magic, itself, involves invoking the names, iconography, etc. of divine forces, but it also includes force of will. There's no proof that it isn't "just another kind of magic", no different than arcane. There's also no proof that it is, either. The names of the gods might be just other magic words that happen to open up a link to another plane and fuel the magic. Because divine casters are so rare, and the skills so closely guarded there really aren't any known divine casters who aren't also tied to a church. Maybe divine casting only requires a mote of extraplanar energy and the gods aren't gods at all, but practically unintelligent spirits; the ability of demons and fallen angels to grant spells to their cults would seem a strong argument for that. Or... maybe the gods are really gods and they grant spells to those they deem fit and those angels and demons are just riding the wave of Khyber (or even Eberron or Siberys).

If the players want answers, and the DM is willing, go ahead and answer. Pretty sure Keith never will.

Ok, so what dire consequence would result in taking out fantasy Hitler, I mean King Kaius? I mean other then freeing a population from a terrible undead tyrant? What would the Church of the Silver Flame think about leaving him in charge if they were aware of what he was? And what would it do to their "belief" if the hierarchy ruled that evil had to be suffered to live in the name of peace?

Assuming you're awesome enough to actually do it, does a worse evil step in? Do others know you just took out one of the five major monarchs? If so, what's to keep them from getting all paranoid and having you assassinated. If you're tight with one of the other rulers, what if everyone assumes you killed Kaius as an operative of that ruler and deciding to take them out before a pattern emerged? Congratulations, you've just sparked WW2 and no one knows who dropped the bomb from the first one or what sort of bomb it was. What could go wrong? Alternatively, maybe The Twelve decide they like things without the possibility of more nuclear wastes, so they end you as a threat. Heck, maybe the Chamber decides that it's time to stop these younger races before they blow up a whole continent and/or ruin the Prophecy.

House Kundarak still needs high level casters to create its stuff no mater how much handwavium the DM uses. They just conveniently disappear off screen leaving wards and items stamped with "Elmunster". Personally I just dont buy it.

Nope. You're asking the wrong question, entirely. It's not caster level. It's maturity of the dragonmarks.

The Dragonmarks have very particular abilities. While the houses periodically learn to tap into new ones, it's a slow process -- not unlike industrial achievements. Also, dragonmarks don't just grow on trees. They're in limited supply. Sure, Cannith can create life, but they need a forge that can only be used by one of the 10 or so people who bear the Siberys Mark of Creation. Those 10 people don't necessarily have access to any other noteworthy abilities, either. So, just because they can do this ridiculously powerful thing, on par with a 7th level spell (or so), their next coolest trick might be to turn out +1 swords. By the way, it's also illegal for Cannith to operate those forges, so... politics and more adventure hooks.

On top of that, the very, very best toys aren't actually stuff the Houses created, though they're loath to admit it. Strangely, you can go to Xen'drik and find 7,000 year old components that fit warforged perfectly -- stuff that exceeds Cannith's ability to manufacture. What are the odds that the forges aren't all original research and that a good chunk of the work came from something the house found, maybe even a working prototype? In that case, the Mark of Making didn't actually let them create the magic, the Siberys mark is just a skeleton key that let's them use things they don't even understand. Since the biggest forge was in Cyre, for all we know, Cannith decided they wanted self-replicating warforged and the forge jammed and blew up. I don't see that as being the best answer to the Mourning, but it's certainly on list of possibilities.

I used Cannith and warforged because I find them somewhat more interesting than building vaults, but the questions and train of thought still illustrate the point well.

 

[Shasarak]

If the players want answers, and the DM is willing, go ahead and answer. Pretty sure Keith never will.

I know Keith seems pretty busy with his new stuff like Phoenix Dawn Command, so perhaps never is too soon to say depending when WotC gets off its FR bender.

Assuming you're awesome enough to actually do it, does a worse evil step in? Do others know you just took out one of the five major monarchs? If so, what's to keep them from getting all paranoid and having you assassinated. If you're tight with one of the other rulers, what if everyone assumes you killed Kaius as an operative of that ruler and deciding to take them out before a pattern emerged? Congratulations, you've just sparked WW2 and no one knows who dropped the bomb from the first one or what sort of bomb it was. What could go wrong? Alternatively, maybe The Twelve decide they like things without the possibility of more nuclear wastes, so they end you as a threat. Heck, maybe the Chamber decides that it's time to stop these younger races before they blow up a whole continent and/or ruin the Prophecy.

Sounds like some good Xp for the taking there. Personally I dont buy the better the devil you know argument and the Dragons are not going to do anything anyway.

Nope. You're asking the wrong question, entirely. It's not caster level. It's maturity of the dragonmarks.

And maturity is based on ..... level.

The Dragonmarks have very particular abilities. While the houses periodically learn to tap into new ones, it's a slow process -- not unlike industrial achievements. Also, dragonmarks don't just grow on trees. They're in limited supply. Sure, Cannith can create life, but they need a forge that can only be used by one of the 10 or so people who bear the Siberys Mark of Creation. Those 10 people don't necessarily have access to any other noteworthy abilities, either. So, just because they can do this ridiculously powerful thing, on par with a 7th level spell (or so), their next coolest trick might be to turn out +1 swords. By the way, it's also illegal for Cannith to operate those forges, so... politics and more adventure hooks.

On top of that, the very, very best toys aren't actually stuff the Houses created, though they're loath to admit it. Strangely, you can go to Xen'drik and find 7,000 year old components that fit warforged perfectly -- stuff that exceeds Cannith's ability to manufacture. What are the odds that the forges aren't all original research and that a good chunk of the work came from something the house found, maybe even a working prototype? In that case, the Mark of Making didn't actually let them create the magic, the Siberys mark is just a skeleton key that let's them use things they don't even understand. Since the biggest forge was in Cyre, for all we know, Cannith decided they wanted self-replicating warforged and the forge jammed and blew up. I don't see that as being the best answer to the Mourning, but it's certainly on list of possibilities.

I used Cannith and warforged because I find them somewhat more interesting than building vaults, but the questions and train of thought still illustrate the point well.

Since when does Cannith worry about what is illegal or not? Seriously, creating the Mournland as well as an intelligent slave race yeah not seeing a House too worried by right or wrong.

 

[Lanefan]

I mean, if I ran the Realms, it'd be pretty harsh:
- Five Factiions? Never heard of them. Hate world-spanning organizations. Especially something like the Harpers because good is stupid.

There's always a use for world-spanning organizations, particularly if they operate in the shadows (be it for good, evil, or whatever), in that the existence of such can a) provide you as DM with material to mine for storylines if you need to and b) explain events that might otherwise be unexplainable.

- Lords of Waterdeep? Yeah, as if the rulers of a major city could keep their identities unknown. The city's ruled by a council of guilds. There's some moving in the shadows, but no Illuminati.
- Avatars? Gods walking the world? Stupid. Never happened. Continuity issues? Who cares? Still stupid.

I quite like the idea of the rulers of somewhere important being hidden, and thus unknown quantities. Adds to the mystery. And there's precedent in real-world myth for at least some gods walking the world now and then...Odin, for one.

- Drow? Yeah, I guess they exist, but hardly anyone ever sees them. There definitely have never been any even marginally famous good-aligned drow. No, you can't play one.

Sure, you can play one...just be ready to roll up your next PC real fast, as chances are high you'll die as soon as you meet the party if not before.

- Underdark? Doesn't exist. Drow and other critters like that eek out an existence in isolated caverns and have a very hard time interacting with one another.

Think twice on this one. The underdark, or at least the concept of such, long predates FR. Even back in A2 there's dark elves, and a passage leading down to who knows where; and don't they show up in the G-series as well? I think if you summarily do away with the underdark entirely you're cutting yourself off from a whole lot of good adventure and story possibilities, and what's the point of that?

Lan-"I sometimes think of the underdark as just one great big massive megadungeon"-efan

 

[Aldarc]

What if something else appeared and started to give its followers bonus stuff that "normal" Clerics did not get from their church - suddenly this new religion starts to look pretty tempting. And what are the old Gods going to do about it? Nothing because they are too distant.

But the Church of the Sovereign Host is not too distant, and it would be the responsibility of the Church and its entire retinue of clergy (e.g. clerics, paladins, fighters, etc.). The destruction of the Sovereign Host's religion would not be entirely new; it happened on Riedra under the "beneficent" tyranny of the Inspired. But again, it' not necessarily the responsibility of the gods to do anything. If it were their responsibility, then the better campaign would probably be playing the gods and not mortal player characters.

Ok, so what dire consequence would result in taking out fantasy Hitler, I mean King Kaius? I mean other then freeing a population from a terrible undead tyrant? What would the Church of the Silver Flame think about leaving him in charge if they were aware of what he was? And what would it do to their "belief" if the hierarchy ruled that evil had to be suffered to live in the name of peace?

It would probably be best to leave out the real world analogies. That said, it's little wonder you don't get Eberron. You're blindly running in, guns-blazing, treating the world as if you're in the heroic epic fantasy of Forgotten Realms with zero political consequences. "We murdered the 'Bad Guy' so the day is simply saved ipso facto! Church of the Silver Flame, we demand praise, gold star stickers, and pats on the head for a job well done!" The Church of the Silver Flame is opposed to Karrnath and its use of undead, but that also speaks more to (1) how the Church of the Silver Flame has become synonymous with Thrane, and (2) nationalistic grudges from the Last War. That said, only the upper most echelons of Karrnath know that King Kaius III is actually King Kaius I or even a vampire. As far as most people know, King Kaius III was a pro-peace king who initiated talks for the Treaty of Thronehold, and the people of Karrnath regard him in high esteem. You may think that you are liberating the people of Latveria by killing Dr. Doom, but they won't share your naive, idealistic optimism.

House Kundarak still needs high level casters to create its stuff no mater how much handwavium the DM uses. They just conveniently disappear off screen leaving wards and items stamped with "Elmunster". Personally I just dont buy it.

Do they? What level did House Cannith's artificers have to be to create the warforged? What level does any House have to be to create their more remarkable works?

I know Keith seems pretty busy with his new stuff like Phoenix Dawn Command, so perhaps never is too soon to say depending when WotC gets off its FR bender.

He still answers questions and writes articles about Eberron, including the setting in 5e. You are free to ask him your questions. He's really a nice guy about it as long as you're respectful.

Sounds like some good Xp for the taking there. Personally I dont buy the better the devil you know argument and the Dragons are not going to do anything anyway.

Meta-Power-Gamers for the Win? Seriously, I don't know why you treat Eberron's political landscape as if it were a hack 'n' slash dungeon crawl.

Since when does Cannith worry about what is illegal or not? Seriously, creating the Mournland as well as an intelligent slave race yeah not seeing a House too worried by right or wrong.

Entirely unconfirmed and unknown what caused the Mournland.

 

[transtemporal]

Quality wise Golarion is the closest both in quality and feel and is kind of an FR/Mystara hybrid.

Golarion is better written, has more internal consistency and isn't plagued a munchkin writer who desperately wants to write himself as a character in his own setting.

Don't get me wrong. I've DMed or played in a few FR campaigns and they've been fun but we've also largely ignored or altered canon to suit our needs.

 

[Zardnaar]

Golarion is better written, has more internal consistency and isn't plagued a munchkin writer who desperately wants to write himself as a character in his own setting.

Don't get me wrong. I've DMed or played in a few FR campaigns and they've been fun but we've also largely ignored or altered canon to suit our needs.

I don't generally read the Greenwood novels.

Probably not disagreeing with the Golarion thing, Inner Sea World Guide is very very good. 3.0 FRCS might beat it in terms of production values but its close.

 

[Derren]

So your argument against using/altering the FR setting is what?

So not only do you need to unteach new players all the stuff which didnt happen in your setting you also need to make stuff up for all the changes you did. And if you care about internal consistency this can quickly spiral out of control as one change neccesitates 3 other changed and so on.
And if you are really lucky the next adventure path is about the Lords of Waterdeep and the underdark and you have to explain to every player why this didn't happen in your realms.
So why use the FR at all? Whats the advantage when you do not use it as written?

 

[Zardnaar]

Never had m uch of a problem with players knowing more about FR than me and I always make it clear its my FR. Drizzt might be dead, I used Elminster once due to a crap adventure having him in it.

A few crap DM's out there I suppose.

 

[Fleetwood C. DeVille]

No, but there is always the complication of new players to the group who don't know what canon you've changed or ignored, even if your group is well versed in it. Sure, you can overcome it, but it ranging from annoying to painful, depending on how much you've tweaked.

I mean, if I ran the Realms, it'd be pretty harsh:
- Five Factiions? Never heard of them. Hate world-spanning organizations. Especially something like the Harpers because good is stupid.
- Lords of Waterdeep? Yeah, as if the rulers of a major city could keep their identities unknown. The city's ruled by a council of guilds. There's some moving in the shadows, but no Illuminati.
- Avatars? Gods walking the world? Stupid. Never happened. Continuity issues? Who cares? Still stupid.
- Drow? Yeah, I guess they exist, but hardly anyone ever sees them. There definitely have never been any even marginally famous good-aligned drow. No, you can't play one. I'd rather you showed up in a Jar Jar Binks costume and talked in character for four hours.
- Underdark? Doesn't exist. Drow and other critters like that eek out an existence in isolated caverns and have a very hard time interacting with one another.
- Undercity? Pretty hard without an Underdark.
- Elminster? Yeah. He used to talk with Mordenkainen and Dalmar. He was in transit when contact was lost with those worlds. As far as we can tell, he will be feeling the pain of being atomized for the rest of eternity. No, even Ao can't save him.
- Khelban? Yeah, he can stay. I just like the name. He won't be relevant to, well, anything. Ever.
- Wall of Souls? Sure. Might as well have a reason for you to fill in that blank on your character sheet because I know you ain't gonna, otherwise.

Fair enough. In my group I am the most read/versed in Realms lore. My players accept whatever changes I have made probably without realizing a change has been made.