D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Shasarak]

The idea that you can get more powerful just by killing a bunch of things makes sense from a gaming perspective for the PCs, but not necessarily from the world perspective. Why should a cleric get better spells because they beat up some orcs? How does a mage learn the mysteries of the universe in a field doing the same fireball over and over? Or at the very least, why does it make a difference whether the fireball is cast at orcs or an empty field?

That question was really answered by Gary Gygax in 1979, other people have been coming up with their own explanations that have different advantages and drawbacks depending on if you want to have an 11 year old High Priestess or not.

From a different perspective, demanding the old priest that can raise from the dead or the ancient archmage have adventured, PC-style, seems limiting on NPC concept.

Special snowflake characters should be special exceptions not the rule otherwise they loose their uniqueness.

 

[Hussar]

That's about it.

That's its blessing and curse.

Thank you for actually answering the question. And that's not snark, that's an honest response.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Eberron tried a lot of new things. Assuming that PC's are special snowflakes and no one else in the world can gain class levels easily except the PC's was one of them.

And if you like that concept, great. Go play Eberron. Or import the concept into your campaign and say that Elminster is normally a 5th level wizard, but while he's the Chosen of Mystara he's an Archmage who gives out random quests and sleeps with goddesses.

But I think faulting the Forgotten Realms for not using a a concept only a single, brand new (at the time), setting uses isn't really fair. It's not like Dragon Lance didn't have a God wandering around helping out the characters in the stories, have a PC become a God. Or Greyhawk doesn't have a dozen or sight high to epic level characters wandering around, some of whom also became Gods.

Oh, I most certainly wasn't faulting FR for having a different take: Its a much more high-power, high-magic setting, and that has its own draws.
My post was directed at Maxperson as an explanation to help them understand what people were getting at in terms of the differences between high-level NPCs in another setting that they had little knowledge of.
This is an interesting thread and I was trying to head off a potential implosion caused by words like "hypocritical" and "disingenuous" being thrown around.

Special snowflake characters should be special exceptions not the rule otherwise they loose their uniqueness.

The plus side of 5e take on NPCs: they have the powers required and that make sense. You aren't required to build them as PCs. If you want the high priest to be able to resurrect people, you can simply do so without having to tack on level-based baggage like masses of hit points or justify how a member of a cloistered order could have killed enough orcs to get to high levels.

 

[Seramus]

But I don't see how they would make the PC's feel less useful. We have stories about legendary athletes - does this discourage talented new athletes from trying out for the big leagues? And the PC's have a real chance of surpassing any of the legendary NPC's if the game lasts long enough. Or they may just remain as stories, and the PC's never meet them.

Yep! I know plenty of people who stopped trying very hard in athletics or other things they otherwise seemed to be enjoying because someone nearby was doing it better. Like, a really huge number of people. Envy is an unpleasant thing.

The problem is when the DM insists on having them show up for low level PC's. For any reason - being their special friend, putting them in their place, or even just giving them quests. It's using a sledgehammer to swat a fly. Massive overkill and causes a big mess.

This is true, but the Forgotten Realms has the slightly unique problem of having so many notable heroes that it almost breaks suspension of disbelief that those heroes are NOT coming down and meddling in anything bigger than local affairs.

 

[Aldarc]

The reason that NPCs come out of the Last War in Eberron at only around 10th level is that the war wasn't actively being fought continually. Like the real Hundred Years War, there were different ohases of conflict, quiet, and changing alliances, i doubt even an elf or a dwarf would have served the entire Last War, and other races couldn't. And like most war, it's mostly sitting on your arse, waiting, or dying of disease, interspersed with quick moments of violence, and usually in massed formations. I would imagine. I don't know if that's really conducive to "gaining experience".

Plus, armies present a large party with whom you would have to share experience, potentially diluted to the point where you don't get any. Or you are posted to some outpost in the middle of nowhere, seeing little to no action. Or recent vets don't see as much action because warforged and undead troops were more expendable. The reasons why you average veteran may only come out as a level 2 warrior are incredibly numerous.

"In comparison" is entirely relevant to Aldarc's point, which was spelled out for you in the very post you quoted. The high-end NPCs listed can't go out and solve the problems instead of the PCs: If they are even aware that there is a problem, they might be trying to hire the PCs to solve it.
Given its Eberron, they might even be working against the PCs instead.

So no: they aren't going to overshadow the PCs simply by virtue of being high-CR creatures living in the same setting. Compare, as was suggested to you, to Forgotten Realms where there are several high-CR beings known to actively solve problems by doing essentially what the PCs can do, only better.

Indeed. Also, we are not subjected to fiction detailing the great adventuring deeds of an awakened tree, a young priestess who is mostly stuck in Flamekeep, and twin rulers of a reclusive, undead-worshipping group of elves on an island that no non-elf wants to visit.

Here is a complete list of the NPCs of level 10 or higher in 3E, outside of Argonessen (aka, Here Be Dragons/No PC's Land). I found this in the archives of another discussion on another forum, though it may have a few mistakes. As this person notes, there are actually barely any good-aligned characters in this list. The highest level good character, who isn't confined to a Temple, is level 14: Saala Thorn (NG half-orc druid), who is the nominal head of the Gatekeepers Sect. Also, as this person points out - which you can admittedly read for yourself - these characters tend to be multiclassed in 3e, which further dilutes their power.

 

[Caliban]

Yep! I know plenty of people who stopped trying very hard in athletics or other things they otherwise seemed to be enjoying because someone nearby was doing it better. Like, a really huge number of people. Envy is an unpleasant thing.

Nearby. Not the athletes you see on TV or hear about in a magazine or online. If the high level NPC's are nearby doing things to show up the PC's - that's a problem with the DM, not the setting.

If merely knowing that high level NPC's exist somewhere in the setting makes your players give up trying...then that's a problem with the players. You probably shouldn't be running in Forgotten Realms if they are that sensitive about fictional characters being more powerful than they are. Maybe try Eberron?

This is true, but the Forgotten Realms has the slightly unique problem of having so many notable heroes that it almost breaks suspension of disbelief that those heroes are NOT coming down and meddling in anything bigger than local affairs.

I would disagree. I've played and run in the Forgotten Realms since 2nd edition and it's never been a problem unless someone decided to make it a problem. Usually the DM being to enamored of the NPC's they read about in the novels or supplements.

If you feel that you have to tell your players what all the high level NPC's are up to at the beginning of each adventure, and the players are feeling discouraged...that's not really a problem with the setting.

 

[Caliban]

Thank you for actually answering the question. And that's not snark, that's an honest response.

Yeah, it's not like you haven't received a nearly identical response from me and other people multiple times.

Oh wait:

Well FR may not be for you. Its a generic sandbox that might not appeal to you.

I've already told you a couple of times now - if this doesn't apply to you (already having a bunch of FR stuff and experience from previous editions), you have no reason to use it.

Active support from WOTC in the form of new and updated adventures. If you don't care about that? Nothing.

Because the Realms is a fantastic setting that DOES reference mountains of material. That's one of best parts. You don't need to use any of it, but it's there if you want to.


If you can't handle that...don't use the Realms.

 

[KahlessNestor]

Plus, armies present a large party with whom you would have to share experience, potentially diluted to the point where you don't get any. Or you are posted to some outpost in the middle of nowhere, seeing little to no action. Or recent vets don't see as much action because warforged and undead troops were more expendable. The reasons why you average veteran may only come out as a level 2 warrior are incredibly numerous.

Indeed. Also, we are not subjected to fiction detailing the great adventuring deeds of an awakened tree, a young priestess who is mostly stuck in Flamekeep, and twin rulers of a reclusive, undead-worshipping group of elves on an island that no non-elf wants to visit.

Here is a complete list of the NPCs of level 10 or higher in 3E, outside of Argonessen (aka, Here Be Dragons/No PC's Land). I found this in the archives of another discussion on another forum, though it may have a few mistakes. As this person notes, there are actually barely any good-aligned characters in this list. The highest level good character, who isn't confined to a Temple, is level 14: Saala Thorn (NG half-orc druid), who is the nominal head of the Gatekeepers Sect. Also, as this person points out - which you can admittedly read for yourself - these characters tend to be multiclassed in 3e, which further dilutes their power.

Personally I don't see anyone coming out of the army with any levels. I don't think you gain levels until you say "I am going to become a PC." But then I guess I didn't come up in the 3e era where everyone had levels.

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[KahlessNestor]

Really, the high level NPC issue is a non-issue in 5e. They're pretty mucb all dead now. I can probably count on one hand the number still around.

Elminster
Drizzt - never usually leaves the Sword Coast
Bruenor - king now, so other responsibilities.
Farideh - newer, and not sure where she's off at
Laeral Silverhand - Open Lord of Waterdeep, so weighed down with her own responsibilities.

There might be more I am missing, as I haven't read all the novels. But non of these are statted out (except Drizzt), and can be whatever power level you like. And Drizt was only stated to like level 8 or 10 or so.

Most importantly, the novels are done. None of these people are doing anything anymore.

So how does that impact your game?

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[Sadras]

Or import the concept into your campaign and say that Elminster is normally a 5th level wizard, but while he's the Chosen of Mystara he's an Archmage who gives out random quests and sleeps with goddesses.

Don't you dare sully my Mystara with your dirty old sage!!! Besides we have our own and he is rad.