D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[cbwjm]

To be fair, in AD&D (at least 1e), only humans and demi-humans and humanoids ever had class levels. And, generally, humanoids didn't either. It was Ravenloft, with Strahd, that the first monster ever got class levels.

And, even then, non-humanoids were never built using PC rules. You simply tacked on whatever stats you felt appropriate (this Goblin Chief is treated as a LvL 4 Fighter - not that that goblin chief actually WAS a Level 4 fighter)



Hang on a tick. The ENTIRE plot line of Baldur's Gate comes from Elminister and Gorion taking in the spawn of Bhaal. Without Elminister, there would actually not be any story to be told.

But it doesn't really affect the adventure in any way. Elminster doesn't come in to save the day he does nothing to affect the outcome. Whether you become a villain or become a hero and defeat the villain is up to the player, Elminster has nothing to do with it, it's player choice, player action. What it isn't is "wait sec, Elminster will be here to sort things out."

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[Shasarak]

To be fair, in AD&D (at least 1e), only humans and demi-humans and humanoids ever had class levels. And, generally, humanoids didn't either. It was Ravenloft, with Strahd, that the first monster ever got class levels.

And, even then, non-humanoids were never built using PC rules. You simply tacked on whatever stats you felt appropriate (this Goblin Chief is treated as a LvL 4 Fighter - not that that goblin chief actually WAS a Level 4 fighter)

If you wanted to look for Humanoids with levels then there was always The Complete Book of Humanoids in 2e which was at least 7 years before 3e.

With a quick look in my ADnD Monster Manual I see that Elves are listed as having about a 5% chance of having levels where as Orcs just get extra Hit Dice for their leaders.

 

[Shasarak]

I just checked. Not counting noncombatants (mostly wives and children), there are 77 0 level militia in Hommlet and 15 leveled individuals. We're talking about 10% of the population in a village that is hardly typical. In the Moat House, we get 8 Brigands (unique stat blocks) led by a 2nd level fighter. Lower down we get 6 Guardsmen and 1 Sergeant - no levels. In the next encounter, we get 12 guards, 2 sergeants and a 4th level fighter leader. The final encounter is Lareth the Beautiful, who is a 5th level cleric.

I'm not really sure you can say that class leveled individuals are all that common when the only classed individuals we see are humans/demi-humans and even then on ly a small fraction of those.

That woould probably map with my expectations. A 5% chance of having someone with a level, so every 1 in 20 people, seems reasonable to me.

 

[Shasarak]

Late 2E introduced that in the High Level Campaigns Book (IIRC). Basically about 1 in ten had a level in a class (lvl 1), 1 in a million was level 18.

Seems low but even in a pre industrial society imperial Rome would have had around 60 lvl 18 characters kicking around, 120 lvl 17 ones and something like medieval France could have had 20-30 lvl 18 NPCs.

I tend to lean more towards original Greyhawk, most NPCs are level 13 and below, the greatest heroes and villains are level 18.

Of course, you had to have a Grandmaster of Flowers and an Arch Mage, an Arch Druid caps out at Level 14 and Grandfather Assassin at 15th. This was all stuff written into the players handbook.

 

[Hussar]

If you wanted to look for Humanoids with levels then there was always The Complete Book of Humanoids in 2e which was at least 7 years before 3e.

With a quick look in my ADnD Monster Manual I see that Elves are listed as having about a 5% chance of having levels where as Orcs just get extra Hit Dice for their leaders.

Sorry, I'm not sure here. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? I did point out that in AD&D, it was only humans, demo-humans and humanoids that got class levels until the release of Ravenloft which is 1983. And, even then, it's not exactly a far jump from humanoid to vampire. To be fair, I suppose, Liches obviously had class levels from the get go.

But, no, the idea of NPC's and PC's sharing the same rules was very much a 3e addition to the game and, really, only applies to 3e. It's not like there's a Commoner class in any other edition of the game. Orcs didn't have 1 HD because they were 1st level Warriors, they had 1 HD because they were orcs. I mean, funnily enough, in 3e, kobolds are exactly the same size as orcs, hit dice wise. Orcs have 5 hp as opposed to a kobold's 4, simply because of a Con bonus. In AD&D, the largest of kobolds was just as big as an average orc, hit point wise, and could never equal a larger (5hp+) orc.

The only difference, really, between a goblin and an orc in 3e is that an orc has a higher strength. Statblock wise, they're virtually identical. This wasn't true in earlier editions. Kobolds, goblins and orc all used different hit dice, and, because goblins and kobolds were less than 1 full hit die, fighter types got massive bonus attacks (1/level/round) against them.

 

[KahlessNestor]

If I may ask, what edition (or game system, for that matter) did you start with?

I've been based in 1e AD&D all the way along and have always just taken it for granted that there's other levelled people out there in the world; some who earned said levels by adventuring (in parties other than the one(s) that get played) and others who earned their levels more slowly as soldiers or temple clerics or street thieves or research mages. Maybe it's because of the published modules...

Look at T1 Village of Hommlet. Half the supposed peasants in that village are levelled - in a few cases significantly so - in at least one class. And the three BBEGs are also all levelled NPCs. No PCs here.
Look at Dark Tower. There's a bunch of levelled NPCs you can rescue or meet at various locations, and a boatload more who are there purely as foes.
Look at the A-series (A1-A4 Slavers). There's enough levelled NPCs and enemies in those four modules to fill out half a dozen parties!

Besides, if there's no other levelled people out there where do the replacement PCs come from when someone's character dies or retires, or a new player joins the game, or someone wants to hire a hench?

Lan-"and no matter how big you get a few of those levelled NPCs are always going to be bigger"-efan

I started in 4E, then played some Pathfinder, and then 5E.

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[Shasarak]

But, no, the idea of NPC's and PC's sharing the same rules was very much a 3e addition to the game and, really, only applies to 3e. It's not like there's a Commoner class in any other edition of the game. Orcs didn't have 1 HD because they were 1st level Warriors, they had 1 HD because they were orcs. I mean, funnily enough, in 3e, kobolds are exactly the same size as orcs, hit dice wise. Orcs have 5 hp as opposed to a kobold's 4, simply because of a Con bonus. In AD&D, the largest of kobolds was just as big as an average orc, hit point wise, and could never equal a larger (5hp+) orc.

Wait what? NPCs and PC sharing the same rules was a 3e thing? Did we not just talk about the ADnD adventures with all the NPCs using PC rules?

 

[Hussar]

Wait what? NPCs and PC sharing the same rules was a 3e thing? Did we not just talk about the ADnD adventures with all the NPCs using PC rules?

Huh?

Didn't I JUST post about T1 where virtually none of the NPC's use PC rules? Like about less than 10%?

I'm getting confused.

 

[Maxperson]

You might want to reconsider. Read Module FRE1, FRE2, and FRE3. Elminster is central to the plot. He is doing much more than the PCs about the immediate threats of the Godswar. He punishes them if they don't want to go on the railroad-y adventure. He gives them clues and "support". The adventures are filled with blocked text with NPCs, including Elminster, talking at PCs or talking past PCs. Mordenkainen has NEVER been used like this.

And I really don't think three wizards being used as a literary device in a series of magazine articles matters.

He gets name-dropped in FA1, FRQ1, Castle Spulzeer, and in Four from Corymyr (and used in the rumor table). The PCs are aided by Elminster in FRC2. Elminster's scribe is hiring PCs to save someone in Sword of the Dales. Elminster's shadow is all over the next module in the series. One of the big closers in the last of the trilogy of modules is the players get to talk to Elminster AND Khelben. He introduces all the dales in FRS1. In Cormyr, we learn he taught Vandergahast.

and I stopped looking but there were plenty more to look at.

Mordenkain has mention and appearances in more products and modules than I thought, and in one module the players get to play him briefly for gods sake. Elminster doesn't ever come close to being played briefly to accomplish anything. As an information source and quest giver, he really doesn't do much.

 

[Maxperson]

And Zagyg as an archmage is in the past of the campaign setting. The capture of 9 gods is how he ascends to demi-god status which is not even made clear in the original campaign book and is certainly not important to any adventure the players would be involved in that I can think of, maybe it's referenced in an encounter in the Ruins of Greyhawk.

And? As I said, it changes nothing about my point. You might as well bring up Karsus who dwarfs Elminster and makes him look like a magical child.