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D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

This is the same as mentioned above where Thor or the rest of the avengers are mysteriously absent from a world altering event with no explanation given. The just-shrug-and-ignore-it excuse is extremely lazy writing and bugs me in comics, movies and any other media.

One of the things about running an RPG is that you can have the characters react the way you want. The whole deal where you are yelling at the screen "No! Don't split up again are you stupid?! Someone dies every time you do that!" And then you get frustrated and angry and never watch that show again.

And yet I see people posting events in their game where they do exactly that because "Yes, I know it is a bad idea, but it is so classic to the genre I'm going to do it anyway." No! It is not classic! It is lazy writing! The author couldn't think of a good reason for the group to split, so he just had them randomly decide to do so for no reason, just to move the plot along. Arggh! It makes me crazy!

Sorry, I kinda got off track there... Back to the point...

Sure, you can ignore the obvious solutions to a problem "because they are too easy and don't tell a good story". And if your group is fine with that then of course there is no such thing as bad-wrong-fun. But for some of us if you want a good story, then make sure you have a good reason for us to not take the easy solution.

You have a have a bunch of Demon Lords invading the Underdark? Well we have a scroll of sending and my wizard met Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun as part of his background. Why wouldn't I just contact him and let him know? Why wouldn't he send a warning to Elminster? By the time of the final showdown I expect that all of the high-powered casters in the realms, along with their favorite meat shields, will be there to kick some serious ass.

TL;DR: I'm not going to do something stupid just to save your plot. But this gets to your next point.



Yep, you need a reason for why the heavy hitters are not going to bother saving the world. And the reason it is a valid criticism is that the published adventure paths don't seem to have any reason for them not to. The fact that Elminster is not even a consideration in the Tyranny of Dragons adventure line is the problem.

Honestly Elminster is always a problem. Now he has the same excuse as Superman or Thor, and that is that he can't be bothered by local events, and that makes sense. But for world shattering events there needs a reason. The usual cop out is "He is away on another plane", but that gets old after awhile.
He's out seducing the characters' significant others of course! He didn't go through all the trouble of setting up this world-shattering event to get the characters out of the house for nothing, did he?

(Seriously though, this gives me a great idea should my players ever ask "What is Elminster doing during all this?" - not that they ever have since the subject never really comes up despite what some posters here may think - I'll create some Family Guy-style cutaways where Elminster is seducing someone, in the privy, being held in chains by a demon lord, fixing sandwiches, or sitting in front of a crystal ball watching the characters while munching on popcorn...)

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This is the same as mentioned above where Thor or the rest of the avengers are mysteriously absent from a world altering event with no explanation given. The just-shrug-and-ignore-it excuse is extremely lazy writing and bugs me in comics, movies and any other media.

Sure, you can ignore the obvious solutions to a problem "because they are too easy and don't tell a good story". And if your group is fine with that then of course there is no such thing as bad-wrong-fun. But for some of us if you want a good story, then make sure you have a good reason for us to not take the easy solution.

Sure, I get it. I mean, there are two reasons for this. The real world reason of it being a Captain America comic rather than a Thor or Avengers one. And then the fictional reason...Thor was fighting Magog and wasn't available to help.

But....there's a difference for a game setting because the DM (and the players) have a huge say in the fiction. The DM is not a passive audience member who is unable to explain away this illusion breaking plot hole. The DM can actively address it. Each group should be playing in their version of the Realms.

So, if this is going to be a problem for a specific game, then why wouldn't it fall to the DM to cater things to his or her group?


You have a have a bunch of Demon Lords invading the Underdark? Well we have a scroll of sending and my wizard met Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun as part of his background. Why wouldn't I just contact him and let him know? Why wouldn't he send a warning to Elminster? By the time of the final showdown I expect that all of the high-powered casters in the realms, along with their favorite meat shields, will be there to kick some serious ass.

These are good questions. Why wouldn't Khelben or Elminster help? For my players, the question would be "Who?", but for other players, especially one who's gone to the trouble of incorporating one of them into his background, they're important questions.

So isn't this a game specific issue? And wouldn't a game specific issue be more a DM matter than a designer matter?

Yep, you need a reason for why the heavy hitters are not going to bother saving the world. And the reason it is a valid criticism is that the published adventure paths don't seem to have any reason for them not to. The fact that Elminster is not even a consideration in the Tyranny of Dragons adventure line is the problem.

That's interesting, because for many others, the problem is when he shows up, not when he is left out.

I think 5E has made a great effort to diminish the importance or prominence of many of the long-standing NPCs. All the NPCs that have been introduced in the adventures are involved in the stories. They don't offer anything for characters beyond the story, other than a couple of passing mentions.

Honestly Elminster is always a problem. Now he has the same excuse as Superman or Thor, and that is that he can't be bothered by local events, and that makes sense. But for world shattering events there needs a reason. The usual cop out is "He is away on another plane", but that gets old after awhile.

I don't know. I would think that if I really thought this was going to be an issue, I'd make one excuse that lasted....he's dead. Boom, nice and simple, never a problem again.
 


He's out seducing the characters' significant others of course! He didn't go through all the trouble of setting up this world-shattering event to get the characters out of the house for nothing, did he?

(Seriously though, this gives me a great idea should my players ever ask "What is Elminster doing during all this?" - not that they ever have since the subject never really comes up despite what some posters here may think - I'll create some Family Guy-style cutaways where Elminster is seducing someone, in the privy, being held in chains by a demon lord, fixing sandwiches, or sitting in front of a crystal ball watching the characters while munching on popcorn...)
I think I might use this in my CoS game, if I need a tension breaker.

Player: I wish we knew what Strahd was up to.
DM: Cut-scene: Strahd and Rahadin sit opposite one another, a small table between them, atop which stands what appears to be a window frame with no glass.
Strahd: Rahadin, I do not like this, at all.
Rahadin: I know, Master, but it is necessary. Forgetting even the smallest detail could undermine your authority.
Strahd: Very well. Let us be done with this.
Rahadin: *Deftly reaches up through the empty mirror, tweezing his master's nose hair with a practiced hand.*
Strahd: Night Mother! That never stops smarting.
 

Sometimes, I think that the Greyhawk / Forgotten Realms discussions are similar to debates about the relative merits of Coca Cola and Pepsi.

And then there's always Eberron, saying, "C'mon guys, you should drink RC Cola!"

;)
Mystara for the win.

It has beer.
 

distraction

Canadian West Coast Mutant Avengers (British Columbia) - seeing as much of the first X-Men series was in fact filmed here (Victoria and Vancouver) this one makes a frightening amount of sense.

/distraction
 


The novels were accepted canon by everyone involved until the movie studios decided to say otherwise……
Hahahahahahahah. Yea right. Sorry even when I read Splinter of the Mind’s Eye when it first hit shelves I knew it wasn’t canon. The studios marketing people may have fed you that line but they never bought themselves. Shoot even Star Trek could not remember Checkov never met Khan. Wait a minute I do remember a fan page where Pavel Farted in Khan’s space suit or was that Klingons farting in the starboard turbo lift, I forget which.
Again Chaosmancer give me the line quote in the following 5E books which says “ed greenwood mumbles, blogs, articles, bad novels, etc are CANON. AND ALL DMS MUST FOLLOW CANON OR BE DESTROYED!”
5E Dungeon Master Guide
5E Players Handbook
5E Monster Manual
5E Storm King’s Thunder
5E Out of the Abyss
5E The Rise of Tiamat
5E Hoard of the Dragon Queen
5E Princes of the Apocalyse
5E Sword Coast Adventure Guide
5E Volo’s Guide to Monsters
The post 845 mentions http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Wiki:Canon
IS A FANDOM CREATE PAGE. I read “Spellfire” when it first came out. It is the first time I agreed with my wife that a lot of spin off novels are JUNK FICTION. It read like someone wrote a bad novel about his Monty hall pc.
The first time a fan boy would scream at me “this is canon” is when I collect $40 from player Chaomancer and disappear for 15 minutes. Then pour everyone a shot of Jim Beam. Then say, “Don’t worry Eliminister and Drizzit handled it why yall were talking a long rest. Any one up for Candyland?”
 


That's interesting, because for many others, the problem is when he shows up, not when he is left out.

I think 5E has made a great effort to diminish the importance or prominence of many of the long-standing NPCs. All the NPCs that have been introduced in the adventures are involved in the stories. They don't offer anything for characters beyond the story, other than a couple of passing mentions.

Oh absolutely. Having Elminster show up and throw around some 9th level spells to fix things sucks. But it is poor storytelling to introduce a person that is capable of saving the world easily, and then asking you to do it because they can't be bothered. Or in the case of published adventures, the authors just ignoring the issue and letting the DM answer the question if the players ask.

I don't know. I would think that if I really thought this was going to be an issue, I'd make one excuse that lasted....he's dead. Boom, nice and simple, never a problem again.

And that's nice for you. But it shouldn't even be necessary. These are people that make D&D adventures as a job. This is something that a lot of people do for free because it is fun, and they are getting paid for it. A little bit of thought about what the great and powerful are doing during the Adventure Paths isn't too much to ask.
 

Into the Woods

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