D&D 5E Dragon PCs - what are your concerns?

[jgsugden]

I'm assembling a dragon PC class/race combo. You start out at first level as a pre-wyrmling and advance to wyrmling level abilities at 3rd, young adult by 14th and adult (with a huge size) at 20th.

I have the crunch worked out. It has been tested out for balance and fun - I like how it plays in terms of combat / adventuring situations. You are essentially a wyrmling at 3rd level, but with a few minor tweaks for balance issues (max number of breaths per LR in addition to the recharge mechanic, you have a speed of fly 60 - but have to land at the end of every round, etc...) At 20th level you are a huge dragon with legendary resistance, legendary actions, etc... You can also elect to multiclass with traditional classes, to an extent.

What I have not focused on yet is the 'fluff' - the guidance on how to play a dragon as a PC in your traditional style of a D&D game. I thought I'd check with folks on what guidance they felt would be helpful.

If you were a DM and a player came to you with a dragon race/class combo and asked if they could play it, what would be the concerns you'd want to raise for them before you made the decision, together, on whether it was right for your game?

Some examples of issues I would hit on with the 'fluff' discussion:

1.) Urban adventures for non-humanoids might be a little odd. How would the noble feel about inviting a dragon to the masquerade ball?
2.) Many magic items may not work well for a dragon. Do dragons wear capes (Bib of the Mountebank)? Would magic armor reshape to a dragon?
3.) As you get larger (at higher levels) you might have trouble fitting in some places - literally.
4.) Why are you the one dragon that hangs around with PCs?
5.) It takes dragons hundreds of years to grow up - why do you do it so quickly?

 

[The Crimson Binome]

If there was a way to fast-grow dragons over the course of a few months, then that would have a devastating effect on the world. In terms of improbabilities, that single factor dwarfs every other concern.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

It also gets hard to justify having enemies underestimate the PCs, as is necessary for certain types of games with lots of fights which the PCs always win. If the two trolls can tell right off the bat that there's a red dragon right there, why would they attack this group of three humans and a dragon instead of waiting for an easier meal?

 

[jgsugden]

Good start.

If there was a way to fast-grow dragons over the course of a few months, then that would have a devastating effect on the world. In terms of improbabilities, that single factor dwarfs every other concern.

Agreed. My suggested solutions address this issue. For example, one is that you're an adult dragon that has been de-aged and is fairly rapidly regaining your age.

It also gets hard to justify having enemies underestimate the PCs, as is necessary for certain types of games with lots of fights which the PCs always win. If the two trolls can tell right off the bat that there's a red dragon right there, why would they attack this group of three humans and a dragon instead of waiting for an easier meal?

Two trolls come across three soldiers and a donkey sized dragon - is that more terrifying than three soldiers and a wizard? Monsters would look at a dragon PC differently than another human, but as you would not get to large size until level 14, you're not so intimidating until higher levels...

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

If there was a way to fast-grow dragons over the course of a few months, then that would have a devastating effect on the world. In terms of improbabilities, that single factor dwarfs every other concern.

If there were a way to fast-grow 20th level fighters and archmages over the course of a few months, wouldn't that also have a devastating effect on the world? What if it were the same method in both cases?

You deal with this by either (1) making adventuring deadly and Darwinian, so that most candidates die or retire long before making it to 20th level, or (2) making the players weirdness magnets who benefit from opportunities most people wouldn't have. Maybe Borok the Untidy went from zero to hero in mere months through a series of improbable events when Caratha the City of Light had its worst two months in history (goblin assassins, vampire infestations, slaad invasions, and a spillover from the Blood War--all when the Archmage Calisto was busy regenerating himself a new, younger Clone for the first time in decades and therefore unavailable), but another would-be Borok might just cool his heels in the garrison forever waiting for something to happen.

The same might be equally true of dragons. In fact, for all we know, maybe that's WHY dragons typically take hundreds or thousands of years to mature--maybe they need XP but are lazy about gathering it. It's up to the DM, but it can be made to fit.

Personally though, I wouldn't go down that road. If you're a dragon PC, then you're a dragon PC, and your class levels are separate from your age category. If Borok the Untidy is a dragon wyrmling, then by 20th level he is a 20th level fighter red dragon wyrmling, until he becomes old enough to be a 20th level dragon young adult. That's how I would run it. Borok would be all the more legendary for his uniqueness as the toughest wyrmling ever.

 

[KahlessNestor]

I would think you wouldn't be able to go anywhere because...dragon. You're a freaking dragon! A walking bag of XP for everyone you meet. You certainly can't go to any town, and as soon as someone sees you they're going to hire a band of adventurers to kill you, because that's what you do with dragons, because you can't let those things grow up...

If you want to play a dragon, there's always Savage Rifts.

Sent from my SM-G900P using EN World mobile app

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Good start.Agreed. My suggested solutions address this issue. For example, one is that you're an adult dragon that has been de-aged and is fairly rapidly regaining your age.Two trolls come across three soldiers and a donkey sized dragon - is that more terrifying than three soldiers and a wizard? Monsters would look at a dragon PC differently than another human, but as you would not get to large size until level 14, you're not so intimidating until higher levels...

I hadn't realized until you reminded me that advancement to Young Adult was so slow. I agree that a wyrmling is less terrifying to a troll than the young adult I had in mind for an 8th-10th level PC (the level range at which two trolls are a Medium fight by DMG guidelines). I think trolls indeed ought to be terrified by a wizard, but they can't tell by looking at a human that it's a wizard, so the question is "is it more terrifying than three soldiers (presumably 11 HP Guards) and an unarmored human?"

I think the answer would still be "yes", because dragons are known for being tough and breathing fire. Instead of approaching with overconfidence (believing themselves to have the force advantage), I'd imagine the trolls would view it as more of a fair fight, one likely to kill them permanently if they lose (because fire), and therefore not a fight worth risking just for a single meal. Even if there were three very hungry trolls, they'd probably have an argument about which one of them has to tangle with the dragon while the other two grab yummy humans to eat. With just two trolls, no way do I believe they'd just attack on sight, the way that certain style of game requires them to do. Against three soldiers and an unarmored human though I think they would.

 

[Istbor]

While I agree it seems a bit over the top, in difficulty fitting in with most civilized races, it could still work. Likewise for aging so quickly.

It depends on how your world handles dragons.

For instance, in my world all dragons are spell casters. They all (or mostly all) have the ability to shape-shift into a form of their choosing.

That is how the Duke of Brendilyn had no clue that his father's old trusted adviser wasn't just terrifically old for a human, but also a Silver Dragon.

So when that young lass Gretta who recently joined your party, she can go to any of the cities or villages (or cramped spaces adventurers find themselves in). Where her true from as Grettaxion the Greenscaled would not be as welcomed or able.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

If there were a way to fast-grow 20th level fighters and archmages over the course of a few months, wouldn't that also have a devastating effect on the world? What if it were the same method in both cases?

That's why training times exist, specifically to prevent those sorts of shenanigans. If you want to include training times to gain dragon levels, and you measure those in decades, then that could also work.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Agreed. My suggested solutions address this issue. For example, one is that you're an adult dragon that has been de-aged and is fairly rapidly regaining your age.

Is this a unique situation that has already been set up within the narrative, and now you're trying to figure out the best rules to represent that? Because I could buy into that as a one-off event that might occur in a high-magic setting. It's kind of weird of you just want to have this on stand-by in case someone wants to play it, though. It's weird to ask a player whether they'd prefer to play a ranger, a warlock, or a dragon that's been magically de-aged back to a wyrmling and is rapidly regaining its lost power. It almost feels like the setup for a skit on Whose Line.

If I wanted to make dragons playable in the game, I would tie them down to a single age category and try to balance them around that. Let a wyrmling practice with its claws and breath weapon so that they become more skilled at using them, but keep stat gains in-line with what a cleric or wizard would get.