D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Shiroiken]

You have to remember that PC's standing out on their own in a world is only one style that D&D caters to, not "the" style.

There is a reason most PC's were called adventurers at one time.

I agree, but there are many who feel it's The One True Way. To those people, this is one (more) reason to hate FR. Personally, I hate the "precious snowflake" mentality for PCs.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yep. And quite likely the sort of thing an actual living god that has a direct influence on the world is likely to do. Especially if the faith (or lack therof) of people in that world have an actual impact on the god.

It's also not any different from most religions that have a heaven/hell concept where all the "good" people (that worship me) get to go to heaven and everybody else...doesn't.

The first case is one where an active god is behind the coercion. The second is zealous followers. In my campaign, since I don't really address anything that actually happens in the planes, I consider it the second.

Religion can be among the least tolerant organizations around.



Absolutely.

Because of its polytheism, and the fact that its polytheism is relatively consistent across the entire continent, the Realms doesn't tend to have the religious wars that dominated our own medieval eras. Religion, or the misappropriation/misrepresentation of religion, is probably among the most significant causes of most historical conflicts period.

So I think that it's reasonable that a lot of the conflicts within a fantasy polytheistic world, the Realms or otherwise, would still be religiously driven. The main difference being that the religious differences generally don't equal regional or national differences. There are exceptions in the Realms. For example, the Zhentarim had a strong connection to the church of Bane. The open cities and towns (Zhentil Keep, Llorkh, and Orlbar the primary ones) were ruled in the manner of a state with a national religion. But that's rare in the Realms.

I wonder about that. Frankly, once the issue of "My god is the true god" is gone, what reason would most churches in the forgotten realms have to fight?

Is there going to be more than a philosophical discussion about whether or not Chauntea is greater than... is Lathander the God of the Sun? Or the church of Tymora (luck) getting into a fight with the Church of Waukeen (trade and economics)?

Sure, Bane and Cyric and the other evil deities (that frankly should be much less powerful than their good counterparts since so many fewer people would choose to worship them) are going to be causing a lot of conflict, but that is less religion causing conflict than "The being we worship wants to rule the world and we will kill people until that happens" there is no grey, like with the religious wars we had in this world, one side is clearly evil and is recognized as evil by an objective cosmic array.

So, the few churches actively seeking death cause problems, but the majority should get along, at that point we end up moving far closer into politics causing the majority of problems rather than the churches, because church politics and jockeying for power is less about getting worshipers and proving the power of your deity than it is honoring your deity by claiming more stuff in their name.


I guess what I'm talking around is church causing conflicts because of church politics is not what I would consider a religious conflict, a religious conflict is more when the idealogies clash, and that is far less common in the realms once you move beyond the evil gods.... who really could be better served by being something other than gods generally.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

I wonder about that. Frankly, once the issue of "My god is the true god" is gone, what reason would most churches in the forgotten realms have to fight?

Is there going to be more than a philosophical discussion about whether or not Chauntea is greater than... is Lathander the God of the Sun? Or the church of Tymora (luck) getting into a fight with the Church of Waukeen (trade and economics)?

Sure, Bane and Cyric and the other evil deities (that frankly should be much less powerful than their good counterparts since so many fewer people would choose to worship them) are going to be causing a lot of conflict, but that is less religion causing conflict than "The being we worship wants to rule the world and we will kill people until that happens" there is no grey, like with the religious wars we had in this world, one side is clearly evil and is recognized as evil by an objective cosmic array.

So, the few churches actively seeking death cause problems, but the majority should get along, at that point we end up moving far closer into politics causing the majority of problems rather than the churches, because church politics and jockeying for power is less about getting worshipers and proving the power of your deity than it is honoring your deity by claiming more stuff in their name.

I guess what I'm talking around is church causing conflicts because of church politics is not what I would consider a religious conflict, a religious conflict is more when the idealogies clash, and that is far less common in the realms once you move beyond the evil gods.... who really could be better served by being something other than gods generally.

Well, I think that the followers of the evil gods would be enough, but there are some schisms within some of the churches as well, such as Oghma. I get what you're saying though.

To me, though things like the Crusades were "religious" wars, or at least that's the reasoning used behind them at the time. So the wars started by the Zhentarim, at least in the 1350's with Fzoul and the church of Bane would be what I would consider a religious war. The same applies to the wars in Mulhurand, Unther and Chessenta, although they are transplanted from another world with Egyptian and other gods (not a Greenwood element). The part that I liked about that implementation was the God Kings called the prime plane native.

As far as the power of the evil gods (or the gods in general) - the idea of the god's power being tied to their faithful started with 2e. The thing is, the way religion is described, the people acknowledge the gods more than actively worship them. Yes, there will be prayers, potentially sacrifices, and celebrations for the gods to some degree or another. So sailors pay homage to Umberlee before setting sail to appease her and hope for a storm-free journey. That sort of thing. So does that count as worshipers? How much do they have to acknowledge them? Is evil stronger than good in general? Is a blood sacrifice more potent? Perhaps the devotion of the faithful is measured, and the followers of the evil gods are more fanatical? There are a lot of possibilities.

Despite 2e setting it up so the power of faith is important to the gods, I don't concern myself with the gods themselves in my campaign. I'm not really concerned whether Bane is a greater god or a lesser god. Nor do I see any in-world difference between the cleric of a demigod and a greater god. My focus is on the churches and the people themselves. What impact they have in the campaign.

One of those factors is that there are always those that want to believe in something. And even if they are a smallish part of the population, they are still susceptible to somebody with great charisma, and a cause. And a religious cause, at least in my mind, will generally pull in more fanatics than a political one. Regardless of whether it's actually a religious conflict, or driven by a despot who is using faith and religion to further his own goals isn't really the issue. Because if the rank and file, the followers, believe it to be a religious war, then it effectively is.

It's absolutely true that the churches of Bane, Cyric, Bhaal, and Malar are going be behind much of the conflicts. In my own campaign, the church of Bane, some Red Wizards of Thay (for whom Bane is the state religion), and a powerful new Zhentarim leader are all working together. Only the church of Bane is really doing so for Bane, and all three of them are plotting, scheming, and moving against each other. But those alliances, however fragile, are causing an awful lot of strife in a particular area of my Realms right now.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

I agree, but there are many who feel it's The One True Way. To those people, this is one (more) reason to hate FR. Personally, I hate the "precious snowflake" mentality for PCs.

I'm not sure I've seen that mentality in a game.

I also have a question for the Realms folks out there - has anybody actually used Elminster, Drizzt, or other famous NPCs in their Realms campaign? I can't say I know of a campaign personally that did. For some reason I get the sense that the haters think that a Realms campaign is full of all of those NPCs and the PCs are an afterthought.

Is the same perspective/hate directed towards Middle Earth RPGs, or Star Wars, or other settings that have famous NPCs? Or is it just reserved for the Realms?

 

[Maxperson]

Hmmm. I went back to my response to your post and I'm not sure what I said to offend. I apologize if I did. I will happily make clarification/restitution where I did. When I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

I get that the Realms isn't for everybody. I'm not a huge fan of the Dragonlance setting myself. Some of the characters I like, some of the concepts and stories, but as a whole it just doesn't work for me. I dislike the design of kender, gully dwarves, and draconians to start with, three concepts that are pretty central.

I'm not even a fan of everything in the Realms.

So if you don't like the Forgotten Realms, I'm quite OK with that and fully support that.

I didn't see it, either. I think his comment to you was out of line.

 

[Maxperson]

I wonder about that. Frankly, once the issue of "My god is the true god" is gone, what reason would most churches in the forgotten realms have to fight?

Market share. Philosophy. You don't have to believe that your god is the one true god in order to dislike another religion.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm not sure I've seen that mentality in a game.

I also have a question for the Realms folks out there - has anybody actually used Elminster, Drizzt, or other famous NPCs in their Realms campaign? I can't say I know of a campaign personally that did. For some reason I get the sense that the haters think that a Realms campaign is full of all of those NPCs and the PCs are an afterthought.

Is the same perspective/hate directed towards Middle Earth RPGs, or Star Wars, or other settings that have famous NPCs? Or is it just reserved for the Realms?

I've been running the Realms since 1e. Elminster has appeared briefly 3 times as an information resource. Twice the PCs sought him out. Drizzt never has seen the light of day. The Paladin that serves as the Simbul's second in command made a brief appearance once. Alustriel made a brief appearance once. Durnan is at the Yawning Portal and I've had a few parties descend into Undermountain, but he wasn't anything more than a barkeep. Beyond that, I can't remember using any others.

 

[JeffB]

I'm not sure I've seen that mentality in a game.

I also have a question for the Realms folks out there - has anybody actually used Elminster, Drizzt, or other famous NPCs in their Realms campaign? I can't say I know of a campaign personally that did. For some reason I get the sense that the haters think that a Realms campaign is full of all of those NPCs and the PCs are an afterthought.

Is the same perspective/hate directed towards Middle Earth RPGs, or Star Wars, or other settings that have famous NPCs? Or is it just reserved for the Realms?

I have used Elminster one time, as the character's have become the heroes of Shadowdale and it is their adopted home. I used him as an advisor in a Dales Council meeting and he had one line that reinforced the fact that the character's screwed something up big-time. My "kids group" are not familiar with FR other than what they know from our actual play, so no big deal.

I have my issues with FR, but the "NPCs steal the show" is only an issue if the DM/Players make it so. I have run games where a hardcore Realmsophile tried to utilize that kind of knowledge to their benefit "lets go find the contact for The Harpers that I know lives in this town"...or "Elminster would never let that happen". That kind of thing. I can't deal with those kinds of people, so he got pissed and quit after a few sessions of me nixing all his pent up Realms-lore. Adios. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, Sheldon.

 

[hastur_nz]

A lot of the early adventures, at least the ones I read, did indeed feature Elminster in person. For example, the 'sample adventures' in the original grey box for AD&D i.e. 1e, and as noted the infamously terrible IMO 'convert to 2e' adventures. Sure, no-one forces you to run your games like that, but for me that put me off the Realms from day one, and also for when 2e arrived a couple of years later or whatever it was.

From memory, I don't think I ever did actually run a single adventure in the realms, simply because I didn't see anything published that took my fancy (Azure Bonds was the closest, but it was too huge), and the overall tone of the Dale-lands, which was about all there was really fleshed out much in the grey box, just didn't inspire me to make up any adventures of my own. The grey box was a mess for me - most information was thin and dumped out alphabetically, making it near impossible to really understand what this land was supposed to be like, beyond a map that just didn't really make any sense e.g. how are you supposed to trade long-distance if you can't sail a ship east to west. Eventually, when 3e came out, I ended up as a player in the Realms, and it was fine - we did a home-brew campaign from the Dalelands across the desert to finish somewhere near the west coast; I played in a few other 3.5 games in the Realms. I've only started to DM a Realms game, this year, on the Sword Coast where Elmisnter etc are obviously absent (although for fun, a certain antagonist from some books may well make a special guest appearance soon, to help move a plot point forward).

p.s. this thread is asking "what don't you like"... it's not asking for anyone to come in and get all defensive as to "why the realms is in fact so great..."

 

[JeffB]

I should add...

One of the things I hate the most is the section in the DMs book in the OGB that lists a month by month "stuff that happened" for 2 years prior to the year that campaigns are supposed to start. Its mostly a bunch of other adventurers solving all the problems. Some of them have an open hook, but most are "this cool stuff happened last year, some other group of adventurers/NPCs took care of it. Case closed". Stupid waste of space (as well as all the info on adventuring/mercenary companies in the Cyclopedia). I think that was just Ed writing things for his home players to feel good about/be immortalized for.

That section should have been re-written with a different focus-"here is something that happened last year, it may cause XYZ adventure hook for your player's characters in the future".Every single entry.