D&D 5E Resting and the frikkin' Elephant in the Room

OTOH, the DM-led variable-resting solution he's championing is very much at odds with that RAW emphasis, and, IMHO, in keeping with the spirit of 5e's DM Empowerment, and could shore up 5e's encounter guidelines. So that's... interesting.

Exactly. I feel like he's looking for a RAW-minded solution because his players are RAW-minded players. [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] please feel free to correct me if my assumptions are off. I'm not trying to ascribe traits to your players or your game so much as I am describing how it seems to me.

My group also had some learning curve in this area, on both sides of the screen.

Maybe the designers had a little trouble extricating themselves from some 3.x era preconceptions, too?

Oh I'm sure. I still mix up rules from time to time, recalling a prior edition's version of a rule. I can only inagine what it must be like for designers who have worked on two or three editions of the game, and who knows how many beta versions within each edition. I'm sure each of them had preferences on what to take from each edition, and how to make them all work together.

Certainly 5e was conceived with the idea of being true to past editions, particularly the classic TSR editions, and to those tropes shared by all editions. It very different from the other WotC editions in being DM-focused, DM-empowering, and depending very much upon the judgment of the DM, rather than focusing on players' options - and the idea of the DM exercising judgment when it comes to whether resting is possible and how long it might take, seems very consistent with what it is.

That's why I feel like any change to the rest mechanic should be an alternate rule.

I wouldn't think so, no. There was some of that 'rules lawyering' back in the day, certainly, but the whole RAW/'rewards for system mastery' paradigm was very much a 3e thing. Ironically, I suppose 5e should have some 'module' where the DM commits to catering to that kind of behavior, in the name of being 'for' fans of 3.x, as well as those of the other editions.

I suppose that's possible, sure. I don't know what form such a module would take, or if I'd consider such a responsibility of the new edition to provide, but it's a fair point.
 

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Unless the resource system is more granular the problem is never going to be solved, whether you agree it is a problem is the rest of the thread.
 

What is the logic of 6-8 encounters per day? Why does that make sense? Why is the rest mechanic the issue and not the 6-8 encounters?

I think the 6-8 encounter day is drawn from the roots of the game, and also from the fiction that the game was designed to emulate. I don't know if I'd call that logic so much as...aesthetic, maybe?

In the early days, the game consisted of a dungeon and the PCs would explore it, and usually have multiple encounters in a day.

And I don't think the rest mechanic is the issue, nor the expected encounters per day...it seems that the issue is how these two elements interact that's in question.


Disagree. Read up on episode 4 of HotDQ and tell me which spells you feel need to be changed for that chapter.

None. Because yhat chapter was written with the expectation that the characters are receiving a full rest just about every night of the journey. So they're at full strength pretty much every encounter, unless the DM throws a couple at them in the same day. I think that's why the bulk of that part was more about social encounters and investigation and that kind of stuff rather than about combat.

But if that journey was altered to remove the daily full rests, then it's harder to say. Certainly spell durations were designed with a single day timeframe in mind, no? So changing that would impact some spells, I would expect. I personally wouldn't think it's a huge deal, but a more balanced-focused player might.

For example...Animal Friendship has a 24 hour duration. So essentially it was designed with the inteent that one casting of it would be all that was needed in between long rests. So under this altered rest mechanic, does the spell now last for the duration of the trip, or only one day? Does this affect the balance that was considered when the game was designed? Are caster abilities being penalized by this rest mecchanic alteration more than other class abilities?
 

The 6-8 encounters is what relative class resources are designed around, that is if you deviate class imbalances will become that much harder to paper over. Similarly, encounter guidelines are calibrated to a long day, that's why hard doesn't seem that hard - it's only 1/8th of a hard day.

Why 6-8 rather than 1-3 or 3-5 or 1-6? IDK, but it might conceivably have been influenced by the 'fast combat' mandate - combats can be simpler & less challenging individually but still add up to at least a resource management challenge if you have enough of them. It may also have stemmed from wanting to sufficiently differentiate short from long rest abilities, perhaps to help balance/justify the return to many and very potent daily spells.

It certainly has no president in the broader genre, where single encounters are generally contrasted with long, grueling journeys, climactic duels, and huge, lengthy battles. Nor does it draw from the traditional dungeons and hexcrawls of the classic game, the former tending to be player-paced and the latter typically having few & random encounters interspersed over many days.

Ultimately, I think the guideline was there for those who wanted a theoretical formula for balance, some of the WotC era fans, I suppose, since it was those eds that introduced CR & encounter-building guidelines, and wasn't intended to be stuck to, so much as just presented so no one could complain it was absent.

I mean when does it come up? When someone complains encounters are too easy or casters too powerful or whatever.

If you don't care for the pacing implied by those guidelines, your choices are to: re-balance all the classes & monsters to teeter on some other theoretical balance point, and limit your campaign to that arbitrary pacing, instead; change the duration & timing of rests to have those 6-8 encounters every week or whatever, and limit your campaign to that arbitrary pacing, instead; dynamically alter rest duration and availability to match the pacing appropriate to the current situation; or give up on imposing balance via resource management pressure.
 
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Oh I'm sure. I still mix up rules from time to time, recalling a prior edition's version of a rule.
I like to call it 'versionitis.' ;)

That's why I feel like any change to the rest mechanic should be an alternate rule.
What else could it be, at this point? There are already alternate rest rules. Heck, it's be more like advice than a rule: the DMs already free to run like that, re- defining rest as he sees fit.


I suppose that's possible, sure. I don't know what form such a module would take, or if I'd consider such a responsibility of the new edition to provide, but it's a fair point.
Some sort of campaign rules checklist & contract, perhaps?
 

To make a long story short, D&D is suppose to play out like Press Your Luck. It was designed to create tension between, "the longer we stay in the dungeon, the more loot we can get" versus, "stay too long and you'll lose everything."

D&D is also suppose to be a game around resource management. You want to maximize the use of your resources so you can stay in the dungeon as long as possible and therefore get the most loot.

However, many types of players don't want to play that type of game, but are stuck playing a game that's focused on that type.
 

To make a long story short, D&D is suppose to play out like Press Your Luck. It was designed to create tension between, "the longer we stay in the dungeon, the more loot we can get" versus, "stay too long and you'll lose everything."

D&D is also suppose to be a game around resource management. You want to maximize the use of your resources so you can stay in the dungeon as long as possible and therefore get the most loot.
This sounds great so far!

However, many types of players don't want to play that type of game, but are stuck playing a game that's focused on that type.
So what type of game do these many types of players want to play, and is D&D (or if at all, which edition) the best system for said types of game?

Lanefan
 

And I don't think the rest mechanic is the issue, nor the expected encounters per day...it seems that the issue is how these two elements interact that's in question.

Agree.

For example...Animal Friendship has a 24 hour duration. So essentially it was designed with the inteent that one casting of it would be all that was needed in between long rests. So under this altered rest mechanic, does the spell now last for the duration of the trip, or only one day?

Good question on the Animal Friendship spell.

Does this affect the balance that was considered when the game was designed? Are caster abilities being penalized by this rest mecchanic alteration more than other class abilities?

With regards to caster abilities being penalised with a rest mechanic alteration - maybe. Although that option certainly exists as reflected within the DMG and therefore the designers were very much aware of the affected balance by altering rest periods. How well was this playtested - no idea.

I do not think alternating rest periods is as much of a trainsmash as some people claim. I think the 5e system is robust enough to cater to it, otherwise why would they reflect so many rest variants in the DMG. Personally I think alternating rest periods is just another awesome tool the DM may use to assist with providing adequate challenges and assist with the pacing of the narrative (like wandering monsters, dread pool, time-sensitive adventures...etc).
 
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Agree.

Good question on the Animal Friendship spell.

With regards to caster abilities being penalised with a rest mechanic alteration - maybe. Although that option certainly exists as reflected within the DMG and therefore the designers were very much aware of the affected balance by altering rest periods. How well was this playtested - no idea.

I do not think alternating rest periods is as much of a trainsmash as some people claim. I think the 5e system is robust enough to cater to it, otherwise why would they reflect so many rest variants in the DMG. Personally I think alternating rest periods is just another awesome tool the DM may use to assist with providing adequate challenges and assist with the pacing of the narrative (like wandering monsters, dread pool, time-sensitive adventures...etc).

I agree, really. I don't see altering the rest mechanic as that disruptive...just that I think there could be more to it than some folks might expect, or that certain players may find an issue. I prefer the default rest mechanic of 1 hour for a short rest and overnight long rest, but I know that won't work for everyone, and also that there may be scenarios or adventures striving fo a specific feel where it would make sense to use an alternate method.
 

No, no, no... you completely miss the point. I really didn't think I had to take this aaaall the way from the beginning, but here goes.

If your goal is to have 6-8 encounters before the long rest, it doesn't matter whether these happen over an actual day in a dungeon, or over a month during a gruelling desert trek.

They require different pacing. If a story plays out over years, you can't play through 6-8 encounters every single day, everyone will be 20th level (or dead) long before the climax. If you're running the fantasy version of 24, you might have 30 encounters in a single 'day.' You might sack out every night in the years-long story, or not slip a wink in the 24 story, so you're not changing rest frequency (much), it's the pacing of how much /action/ there is between any two rests that varies.

OK. I get what you're attempting to do now. Although I still have issues with the solution. Why? Because you still haven't provided any meaningful fiction to explain why I can't stop and take a rest for a week. Because at night in the desert, I'd pitch my tent (or Leomund's Tiny Hut), and, well, rest. People who live in the desert rest. People traveling in the desert rest.

Sure, you can say the Desert of Thirst has no water, and that sounds like an effective method to cause difficulty, especially since you can't take a rest if you don't have sufficient food or water. Except if you have a cleric or druid, in which case you have water, and you can rest.

So let's remove the first problem I've got with it. Let's separate it from a rest - resting (a normal thing that people do on a regular basis), let's tie recovery to time. You can use the ability again every 4 hours. Except that doesn't solve your problem.

So instead, you're proposing that on a day when you have more encounters, you recover faster. You are able to recover after 5 encounters, let's say. OK, on a normal day that's fine. But when you're traveling, you can't regain your spells now for days, maybe even weeks or months if you don't have any encounters.

So let's try to look at it from a real (fictional) world. Spell slots require you to reconnect to the magical energy, which takes either time, rest, or sleep. I use time and sleep in my campaign, you regain spell slots while sleeping, or after 24 hours if you don't sleep. This is part of the "physics" of the world and I expect that to remain consistent whether I'm gardening, shopping, traveling or adventuring.

AD&D addressed this with much, much slower healing (pretty much requiring magical healing), but otherwise is quite similar (other than having fewer recharging abilities).

1e Recharging Abilities
Spells (see below)
Clerics could turn undead at will, but only once against any given undead.
Druids at 7th level could change into one of three forms, each once per day, although no time restraint.
Paladin lay on hands once/day
Cure disease once/week per 5 levels

Recovery of spells was slower. You had to have complete rest (usually sleep), for up to a certain amount based on the highest level spell to recover: 4 hours for up to second level spells, and 12 hours for 9th level spells, to go with the 8 hour long rest, you could recover 6th level spells.

Then it took 15 minutes per level of spell for each spell to memorize. So a fifth level wizard (4, 3, 2) would need to spend 4 hours memorizing spells. The same for the cleric. In 1e it was 4, 2, 1, so it would have been 2 hours and 45 minutes. So that's either 10 hours (5e spell count) or 8 hours and 45 minutes (in 1e).

Now in my campaigns, we assume about 8 hours of adventuring daily. So setting up camp for the night, resting, memorizing always fit in that approach unless you were very high level, and needed to memorize a lot of spells. So that really hasn't changed anything in my campaign. Even though you don't need as much time to prepare spells, we still rest the same amount of time.

You regained no - zero, zip, nil - hit points resting. You had to spend a full day resting.

Now, let's look back at 5e. Short rest abilities are expected to be available at least every other encounter. I believe the game is designed to support every encounter. Is it really that much different? The only difference I really see is how quickly you heal hit points.

So I'll make the same suggestion again:
Use the gritty realism approach for healing, and the regular resting approach for regaining spells and abilities. Guess what? That's almost identical to AD&D.

So beyond that, what other options do we have? I'll go with my default one - the exhaustion track.

Traveling is tiring. The environment (such as a desert) can have an impact too. Guess what, that's what the DMG uses too. Exhaustion is a perfect solution for a number of reasons. First, it impacts the effectiveness of the character's abilities. Instead of saying "you can't" do this, it just makes it harder. Second, RAW anyway, you can only recover one level per long rest. Perhaps you need lower thresholds for them to come into effect in difficult environments. Third, even a 3rd level spell only restores only 1 level.

Where does that leave us? Actually, it's better than AD&D. In addition to the slow healing, now we're adding exhaustion to the equation.

AD&D didn't have anything that would address the fact that you had fewer encounters per day on a long trek. It did make such encounters seem trivial. My solution was that those encounters were much more difficult. Since there was only one in a given day (or couple of days) they could be really tough. Now, while this sounds like I'm being punitive, or designing it to take into account their power level, the reality is that my reasoning has nothing to do with that.

The wilderness is just dangerous. It's the home of wyverns and dragons, and other great monsters. Caravans travel in large groups, with a dozen or more guards, maybe twenty. So if you're a band of bandits or brigands, you number 30 or 40, not 4 to 6. Which means traveling as a party of 4 to 6 is very, very stupid.

I didn't come up with this on my own. That's what AD&D recommended. Bugbear No. Appearing - 3d12; ghoul 2d12; gnoll 2d10x10 (yes, 20-200 the same as a bandit/brigand).

Sure adventures were designed with the levels of the characters in mind. But low level adventures were close to civilization, and high level adventures further away. The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth says it's designed for 6-8 characters of 6th to 8th level. The pregen party is:
6th level dwarven fighter
7th level human cleric
8th level human fighter
9th level halfling thief
4/9 elven Fighter/Magic-user
4/4/5 half-elven fighter/magic-user/thief

The wilderness encounters include (these are all individual encounters):
3 bears
32 gnolls (raiding band)
6 giant eagles
20 Mountain tribesmen
1 Giant snake
70 Goblins
3 Hill giants
12 wolves with 2 wolfweres (basically a wolf that can assume human form instead of the reverse)
102 Mountain dwarves
1 Hermit
4 trolls
2 wyverns
81 hobgoblins (a "small group")
etc.

--
Your Solution
Use the RAW for rests and recovering abilities
Use the Gritty Realism rest variation for hit points
Use the rules for environments, and you can create similar effects (a cursed tomb imposes exhaustion levels over time, for example).
Make your wilderness encounters more deadly.

And I'll be honest, I didn't expect these results either, and I may be simplifying a few things in my rules!
 

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