D&D 5E Three level 7 PCs vs a Roc in an open field...

[The Crimson Binome]

If they do make such rulings, they need to understand that is making the combats harder and make adjustments to balance it. That was the point of my original post, that there should be some complisation for the nerfing of expected abilities.

It might make the encounter harder than if they were to rule otherwise, but it's not like the encounter was supposed to be balanced in the first place. Maybe a Roc that can be stunned is properly CR 11, and a Roc that can't be stunned would more correctly be measured at CR 12. The party is level 7, and it sounds like this might be their only encounter of the day. All of the design assumptions, under which the math may have originally been balanced, is already being thrown out the window. As a general observation, a level 7 party can easily handle one CR 11 or CR 12 monster in a day, but the simple fact that you're not intended to run those sorts of encounters is enough to mean that it could potentially swing the other way with a couple of unlucky dice rolls.

In perfect seriousness, nothing in the book is balanced to account for a monk flurrying with stunning strikes. That exploit is a byproduct of informal writing and insufficient playtesting. Going by RAW, the monk should be able to keep the Roc stunlocked for at least two rounds (even with its massive +9 to Con saves), and the fighter will turn it into swiss cheese. If the DM rules that it can't be stunned, then the party should still win the fight with just numbers, but it will be less of a complete pushover.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

It might make the encounter harder than if they were to rule otherwise, but it's not like the encounter was supposed to be balanced in the first place. Maybe a Roc that can be stunned is properly CR 11, and a Roc that can't be stunned would more correctly be measured at CR 12.

By DMG rules, adding a condition immunity is "free" in CR terms. You can add Immune: Stunned, Prone, Paralyzed, Restrained, Grappled to any monster without changing CR. This just goes to show that the CR system is extremely crude--training wheels for a new DM, not a high-precision guide to monster deadliness.

In perfect seriousness, nothing in the book is balanced to account for a monk flurrying with stunning strikes. That exploit is a byproduct of informal writing and insufficient playtesting. Going by RAW, the monk should be able to keep the Roc stunlocked for at least two rounds (even with its massive +9 to Con saves), and the fighter will turn it into swiss cheese. If the DM rules that it can't be stunned, then the party should still win the fight with just numbers, but it will be less of a complete pushover.

The roc probably has enough HP to withstand two rounds of being stunlocked. I don't know the fighter's exact stats or how he likes to use maneuvers but a quick BOTE predicts that the fighter will hit on a 6+ and do d8+6 per hit, so with advantage against a stunned target and three attacks per round that comes to 61 points of damage over two rounds. Maybe another 20 HP or so from maneuvers, and 16 or so from Action Surge. If the monk contributes a similar about of damage (say 80 HP), and the cleric does half that much (40 HP), you'll be most of the way towards killing the roc (216 out of 248 HP) when it comes out of stunlock, and you'll be mostly out of resources and down whatever damage it inflicted before being stunlocked.

I don't think there's any real danger of the fight being a pushover unless the PCs exploit ranged weaponry.

 

[Ath'kethin]

Why are they planning such a suicidal approach? Running across an open field with a powerful airborne enemy just seems foolish.

So I'd play up the tension of it. The sky is cloudy, or it's foggy on the plateau. Make it atmospheric; that way not only is the scene more memorable, it gives you options. A dense fog might mean the PCs have disadvantage on perception checks to see the bird, but it also has disadvantage on its diving attacks to threaten them. So they need to rush across the field as quickly a they can, trying to keep quiet and unnoticed, with the constant threat of giant claws coming on from the sky.

Keeping the roc's attack to dive bombing also means it needs to either disengage with them when it pulls up or they get an opportunity attack against it. A roc doesn't have any ability to move away without provoking such an attack.

Also, a roc has advantage on Perception checks that rely on sight, but if the party has total cover from the fog that won't apply.

So I think you can their the PCs a bone without actually looking like you're throwing them a bone, and make a really tense, memorable encounter from it.

 

[Henry]

It might make the encounter harder than if they were to rule otherwise, but it's not like the encounter was supposed to be balanced in the first place.

Agreed, if it's supposed to be lopsided, all is good, my opinion is to just be mindful of how the precedent of changing the game rules is going to affect both this and future encounters.

By DMG rules, adding a condition immunity is "free" in CR terms. You can add Immune: Stunned, Prone, Paralyzed, Restrained, Grappled to any monster without changing CR. This just goes to show that the CR system is extremely crude--training wheels for a new DM, not a high-precision guide to monster deadliness...(SNIP)

I don't think there's any real danger of the fight being a pushover unless the PCs exploit ranged weaponry.

Thanks for the lesson -- I did not realize that about the CR system. I've believed for a while now that the 5e CR seriously needs refinement, and some better "boss monster" rules, because I believe existing legendary creatures were supposed to fit that role, but don't quite work - they still can't stand on their own, and personally I believe that play option should be possible.

 

[OB1]

I'm still having a hard time seeing the three of them surviving this. It just seems too "all or none" with the Roc attacking the party. It seems they would have to completely avoid getting attacked at all. Sure it's POSSIBLE that the Roc would miss it's talon attack but with +13 to hit, it's not likely.

That's the risk of running an enemy who's CR is 150% of PC level, where even with great gear and stats the monster has a great chance of taking people out. With a challenge like this, you are allowing the dice to determine outcome, and any time you do that, you need to be prepared for either possibility.

Is there a reason the PCs have to go through this particular field? Could doing so lead to a greater reward than some other path to their destination? I have a similar group of well geared and combat maxed players, and I use CR150% Encounters to guard treasures (which is how they got some of that great gear in the first place). Right now I have 3 Level 14 PCs with a Level 11 NPC (who they control in combat) debating whether to attack an Ancient White Dragon to get it's treasure or pass it by and keep focused on the main quest they are on. Could they defeat it? Sure. Are they likely to? I'd say they would be below 50%. Is it totally their choice to risk their lives for fortune and glory? Yup and that's what makes the choice so delicious to watch them make.

 

[Mecheon]

The best hero versus giant bird scene is, of course, the fight against Avion in Shadow of the Colossus

Congratulations. That's why they're fighting him in a field. Just gotta lure him low enough to get on that wing and then things are going to End Well.

Coincidentally this video also provides justification for any sort of weapon doing damage

 

[CTurbo]

I appreciate the input. I intended for them to already be somewhat across the "relatively" open field when the Roc showed up in the skies. I figured it would circle them for a while giving them time to think about potential courses of action. I want to provide some cover but not TOO much cover. It's not my intention for the party to try to kill it. Not every encounter is winnable by swinging their weapon, and they're smart enough to know that. Sometimes you "win" by simply making it out alive.

Yes the Fighter and Monk are capable of some pretty decent damage. As stated above. The Fighter can do 3d8+18 every round and add an extra 2d8+12 with the action surge and the Monk can do 2d8+12 + 2d6+10 with a Ki but I still don't think they could ever kill it. I don't see the Roc failing many saves especially Con or Str saves.

I also want to make sure I play the Roc smartly. I figured it would swoop down, make a Talon attack against one player, and the fly off with it on a hit only using the beak attack on the grappled PC when it attempts to free itself? That sounds brutal though.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Thanks for the lesson -- I did not realize that about the CR system. I've believed for a while now that the 5e CR seriously needs refinement, and some better "boss monster" rules, because I believe existing legendary creatures were supposed to fit that role, but don't quite work - they still can't stand on their own, and personally I believe that play option should be possible.

You can have tough solo fights in 5E, but they may or may not conform to your idea of a "boss monsters." The roc in this thread would be terrifying if played with human-level intelligence and malevolent intent--could easily TPK the party if its goal is to kill the PCs and not just to score a meal. It's highly mobile (120' flying speed) and it has a grapple attack, which means that it can swoop down, grab one PC in its talons, and fly off with it to kill that PC solo, and then come back twice more for the other PCs. It would be using divide-and-conquer tactics to exploit its crushing superiority over each individual PC. They can shoot after it with missile weapons but this party apparently isn't set up to make that a strong tactic.

Dragons are also incredibly strong opponents if you give them even a tiny bit of spellcasting. All of my dragons have levels in Draconic Sorcerer (because if a little bit of dragon blood can make you a sorcerer, having a whole lot of dragon blood can only do moreso, nicht so?) and I gotta tell you, an adult red dragon with Darkness (plus blindsight natively) + Shield + Counterspell + Quickened Dimension Door is a terrifying opponent despite being "only" a 7th level sorcerer.

It's possible that such opponents work better for me because I use a different initiative system--I imagine that it's possible for divide-and-conquer techniques to frustrate the players and be un-fun for the DM if you're using standard cyclic initiative and 2/3 of the players have to basically do nothing on their turns--but that's a metagame issue, not related to whether the roc or dragon is capable of standing up to the party. It just affects how much fun the players have while the dragon is fighting their PCs.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I also want to make sure I play the Roc smartly. I figured it would swoop down, make a Talon attack against one player, and the fly off with it on a hit only using the beak attack on the grappled PC when it attempts to free itself? That sounds brutal though.

Yes, this is the optimal tactic for the roc, and probably results in a dead PC.

Edit: wait, when you say "using only the beak attack", are you saying the roc won't use its talons? That isn't optimal. The stat block says, "Until this grapple ends, the target is Restrained, and the roc can't use its talons on another target," (emphasis added) but that doesn't mean it can't use its talons to rend the creature it's already holding.

BTW, after flying upwards with the PC for a round or two, the roc can drop the PC for another 20d6 falling damage or so. If the monk happens to be the PC that got grappled, and the monk manages to stun the roc at high altitude, the roc will actually take more falling damage than the monk will--this is probably their best shot at actually driving off the creature without a meal. But the odds are against the monk managing to do so. If I were the monk I'd just try to break the grapple (DC 19 Acrobatics check, and I'd use inspiration if I could) and fall to the ground on the round right after being grappled. Then run like crazy for cover and hide.

If you want to be more merciful, as a DM, then say the roc is hungry (thanks Henry!) and wants to eat lots of things right away. Have it land and start eating a PC immediately instead of playing hit-and-run. This will give the PCs more of a chance to kill it.

 

[CTurbo]

No I meant the Roc would use it's beak attack against the PC grappled in its talons, but only if it deemed it necessary. Chances are, it wouldn't be necessary.

The more I think about it, the more it doesn't sound like a good idea to do this encounter. The PCs only have 50-60 hp so only the monk would survive being dropped even once (most likely). If I add too much cover, it turns into a scenario in which the Roc would not bother with such small prey.

Like mentioned above, I don't want to force the PCs into such a deadly encounter without any option of escaping. They are already in an open field. That is where we left off with our last session. I suppose I could give them the option of turning around and heading back into the rocky woods.