Easiest way to make the Sorcerer run on spell points without changing anything else is to make converting spell slots give as much as they cost to create.
-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
D&D 5E This is a directory of posters who think the sorcerer needs fixing
- Thread starter MoonSong
- Start date
First I'll showcase my "fixes".
Natural Casters
Sorcerers gain their magic not through study or discipline, but through natural, inborn magical talent. Their magic is in their blood, and so they do not require material components, or focuses, to cast their spells unless the material component has a cost listed in the spell description.
Metamagic
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to twist your spells to suit your needs. You gain all of the following Metamagic options. (this is meant to replace the PHB text, in other words, you get all metamagic options.
Wild Mage
The wild mage has minor alterations to both its Wild Magic Surge and Tides of Chaos abilities.
Wild Magic Surge
Starting when you choose this origin at 1st level, your spellcasting can unleash surges of untamed magic. Immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, roll a d20. If you roll a 1, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a random magical effect.
Tides of Chaos
Starting at 1st level, you can manipulate the forces of chance and chaos to gain advantage on one attack roll, ability check, or saving throw. Once you do so, you must either have a Wild Magic Surge or finish a long rest before you can use this feature again.
My reasoning for the above changes is as follows:
Natural Casters. This one should be obvious. Components are ignored by a lot of DM's which I find annoying but also figure why not make it official for the class that is supposed to be an innate caster? It doesn't have a huge impact and adds a lot of flavour to the class even if DM's aren't that strict on components.
Metamagic. At first blush a lot of people might think this is OP but I think on reviewing the reality of metamagic, it's just fine. Due to the current restrictions on metamagic, almost everyone ends up choosing Quicken and Twinned and maybe Heightened or Extended later on. That's just plain boring. Quicken & Twinned are the obviously superior choices to the point where choosing anything else makes your already lackluster class choice significantly less powerful and interesting. And the thing is, even if you allow all the metamagic options, most combats end up having the player choose Quicken & Twinned anyway. So for the rare moments where Subtle or Extended could be very cool and fun, at least they're there rather than the player wishing they were there but lamenting having to choose the vastly superior options over them. That change alone makes the class far more interesting and fun to play.
Wild Magic Surge. Leaving it up to the DM is just stupid IMO. DM's forget or think it's too powerful or disruptive (it really isn't), or they do it every cast anyway because they think it's fun. There is really no reason to limit it so severely or put it in the hands of the DM. Take that off their plate and just have the blanket rule of a 5% chance whenever you cast a spell rather than a cantrip. I don't like a lot of people's decision to make it more likely per spell level, as then it becomes too significant a chance of occurring to the point of ridiculousness. Spellcasts, even at higher levels, aren't so frequent that 5% chance will be disruptive but are frequent enough that that 5% chance is a constant "threat", and thus adds a constant element of "what if" to every spellcast. Players both become complacent because it's always present and hardly ever happens, but also surprised and think, "Oh crap!" when it does. IMO, 5% per spell cast is the perfect balance.
Tides of Chaos. This has to be paired with the above wild magic surge change otherwise it's not that impressive. At 5% per spellcast, it's enough of a cool factor that it's both fun and doesn't become OP from being too frequent.
These changes, IMO, bring the Wild Mage into line with the Draconic sorcerer's power. I don't see any need or reason to change the Draconic sorcerer at all. The Storm Sorcerer I think needs a tweak but currently I haven't put much thought into it and haven't found any fix I'm satisfied with or like.
Now on to the OP's quoted post:
Spell slots per day does not need to be increased, IMO. That's what spell points are for. I strongly disagree that giving them more spell slots is a good idea as I think that would most definitely tip them over into the grossly overpowered category. I really don't think it's needed or warranted.
Giving spells from other lists is just really, really bad design for the sorcerer. Comparing the sorcerer to the bard is also a false equivalency. If that was a design choice that was preferred, then it would require a wholesale rewrite of the sorcerer from the ground up to accommodate it and isn't something that should be just shoehorned into it.
More metamagic is... hmm... problematic. The scope for powercreep there is really too broad IMO. I think giving them carte blanche access to metamagic is the better option rather than bloating out the metamagic choices. I could see maybe one or two versatility options being added, but other than that, I'd be extremely wary of any extra metamagic options being added, with or without my changes to metamagic.
Natural Casters
Sorcerers gain their magic not through study or discipline, but through natural, inborn magical talent. Their magic is in their blood, and so they do not require material components, or focuses, to cast their spells unless the material component has a cost listed in the spell description.
Metamagic
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to twist your spells to suit your needs. You gain all of the following Metamagic options. (this is meant to replace the PHB text, in other words, you get all metamagic options.
Wild Mage
The wild mage has minor alterations to both its Wild Magic Surge and Tides of Chaos abilities.
Wild Magic Surge
Starting when you choose this origin at 1st level, your spellcasting can unleash surges of untamed magic. Immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, roll a d20. If you roll a 1, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a random magical effect.
Tides of Chaos
Starting at 1st level, you can manipulate the forces of chance and chaos to gain advantage on one attack roll, ability check, or saving throw. Once you do so, you must either have a Wild Magic Surge or finish a long rest before you can use this feature again.
My reasoning for the above changes is as follows:
Natural Casters. This one should be obvious. Components are ignored by a lot of DM's which I find annoying but also figure why not make it official for the class that is supposed to be an innate caster? It doesn't have a huge impact and adds a lot of flavour to the class even if DM's aren't that strict on components.
Metamagic. At first blush a lot of people might think this is OP but I think on reviewing the reality of metamagic, it's just fine. Due to the current restrictions on metamagic, almost everyone ends up choosing Quicken and Twinned and maybe Heightened or Extended later on. That's just plain boring. Quicken & Twinned are the obviously superior choices to the point where choosing anything else makes your already lackluster class choice significantly less powerful and interesting. And the thing is, even if you allow all the metamagic options, most combats end up having the player choose Quicken & Twinned anyway. So for the rare moments where Subtle or Extended could be very cool and fun, at least they're there rather than the player wishing they were there but lamenting having to choose the vastly superior options over them. That change alone makes the class far more interesting and fun to play.
Wild Magic Surge. Leaving it up to the DM is just stupid IMO. DM's forget or think it's too powerful or disruptive (it really isn't), or they do it every cast anyway because they think it's fun. There is really no reason to limit it so severely or put it in the hands of the DM. Take that off their plate and just have the blanket rule of a 5% chance whenever you cast a spell rather than a cantrip. I don't like a lot of people's decision to make it more likely per spell level, as then it becomes too significant a chance of occurring to the point of ridiculousness. Spellcasts, even at higher levels, aren't so frequent that 5% chance will be disruptive but are frequent enough that that 5% chance is a constant "threat", and thus adds a constant element of "what if" to every spellcast. Players both become complacent because it's always present and hardly ever happens, but also surprised and think, "Oh crap!" when it does. IMO, 5% per spell cast is the perfect balance.
Tides of Chaos. This has to be paired with the above wild magic surge change otherwise it's not that impressive. At 5% per spellcast, it's enough of a cool factor that it's both fun and doesn't become OP from being too frequent.
These changes, IMO, bring the Wild Mage into line with the Draconic sorcerer's power. I don't see any need or reason to change the Draconic sorcerer at all. The Storm Sorcerer I think needs a tweak but currently I haven't put much thought into it and haven't found any fix I'm satisfied with or like.
Now on to the OP's quoted post:
Spell slots per day does not need to be increased, IMO. That's what spell points are for. I strongly disagree that giving them more spell slots is a good idea as I think that would most definitely tip them over into the grossly overpowered category. I really don't think it's needed or warranted.
Giving spells from other lists is just really, really bad design for the sorcerer. Comparing the sorcerer to the bard is also a false equivalency. If that was a design choice that was preferred, then it would require a wholesale rewrite of the sorcerer from the ground up to accommodate it and isn't something that should be just shoehorned into it.
More metamagic is... hmm... problematic. The scope for powercreep there is really too broad IMO. I think giving them carte blanche access to metamagic is the better option rather than bloating out the metamagic choices. I could see maybe one or two versatility options being added, but other than that, I'd be extremely wary of any extra metamagic options being added, with or without my changes to metamagic.
Ancalagon
Dusty Dragon
Hello
I wasn't too bothered by the state of the sorcerer in 5e until I bothered making a high level one (level 10) as a possible NPC for the party to confront (try to capture, whatever).
In isolation, this guy seems like he would be fun to play - he has utility *and* offensive powers, personality etc etc. He only knows 11 spells (plus cantrips) so building the spell list was challenging, especially given that he had a bit of a theme going and I had to respect that. But still, 11 spells seemed a bit restrictive but "enough" to make it work.
But now that I've looked at the wizard again and considered the "neo-vancian" aspect... what' the heck is the point?!? The wizards don't have to prep specific slots anymore, they have become essentially spontaneous casters, with a list of memorized spell that is longer than the list of spell known by the sorcerers! Sure the sorcerer has metamagic and subclass specific stuff but... is that enough? The fundamentals are missing.
The warlock too has a short lists of spell known, but it has all sorts of mechanical differences and funky powers to make up for it. I just don't know what the point of sorcerers are anymore.
I know that this is well trodden grounds to you, but it's a new realization to me... So I guess I can be added to the list? :/
I wasn't too bothered by the state of the sorcerer in 5e until I bothered making a high level one (level 10) as a possible NPC for the party to confront (try to capture, whatever).
In isolation, this guy seems like he would be fun to play - he has utility *and* offensive powers, personality etc etc. He only knows 11 spells (plus cantrips) so building the spell list was challenging, especially given that he had a bit of a theme going and I had to respect that. But still, 11 spells seemed a bit restrictive but "enough" to make it work.
But now that I've looked at the wizard again and considered the "neo-vancian" aspect... what' the heck is the point?!? The wizards don't have to prep specific slots anymore, they have become essentially spontaneous casters, with a list of memorized spell that is longer than the list of spell known by the sorcerers! Sure the sorcerer has metamagic and subclass specific stuff but... is that enough? The fundamentals are missing.
The warlock too has a short lists of spell known, but it has all sorts of mechanical differences and funky powers to make up for it. I just don't know what the point of sorcerers are anymore.
I know that this is well trodden grounds to you, but it's a new realization to me... So I guess I can be added to the list? :/
Ancalagon
Dusty Dragon
One of the things that bothers me with the Sorcerer is how some concepts work as concepts but are not a good idea to do in actuality because of low spell slots.
s
For example, say you imagine your sorcerer as a master of moving through space. So at low level he has misty steps, then she masters dimention door, then teleport etc... Neat idea... but one that will take almost a third of your spell selection! If you want any sort of versatility as a sorcerer, you will take *one* such movement spell (at most!) and no other. You'll take one illusion spell, one or two defensive spell, 1 or two attack spells etc etc. If you want to devote yourself to your theme, you'll be a one trick pony.
s
For example, say you imagine your sorcerer as a master of moving through space. So at low level he has misty steps, then she masters dimention door, then teleport etc... Neat idea... but one that will take almost a third of your spell selection! If you want any sort of versatility as a sorcerer, you will take *one* such movement spell (at most!) and no other. You'll take one illusion spell, one or two defensive spell, 1 or two attack spells etc etc. If you want to devote yourself to your theme, you'll be a one trick pony.
Challenge accepted.
Sea Sorceror with teleportation focus at level 20.
Spell list
Cantrips- Shocking Grasp, Ray of Frost, Minor Illusion, Prestidigatation, Chill Touch, Firebolt.
1st level spells- Mage Armour, Chromatic Orb
2nd level spells- Misty Step, Mirror Image
3rd- Lightening Bolt, Major Image, Blink
4th- Dimesional Door
5th- Teleportation Circle, Cone of Cold
6th- Arcane Gate, Chain Lightening
7th-Planeshift, Teleport
8th- N/A
9th- Gate
I skipped 8th, didn't really like any of those spells for this character.
This character has 8 teleportation based spells, 3 defensive spells, 2 illusion spells and 1 illusion cantrip, 4 cold/lightening based spells, which you can put into higher slots for more damage and use metamagic on, 1 save or suck spell (planeshift).
For metamagic Twin Spell, Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, and, Heighten Spell.
Features: Font of Magic, Metamagic, Soul of the Sea (ability to breathwater and a swim speed), curse of the sea (reason for focus on lightening and cold spells), watery defence (resistance to fire damage, the ability to assume a watery form when hit as a reaction 1 a short rest, for damage reduction snd free movement), shifting form (a hole bunch of benifits when your moving), Water Soul (no need to breath, eat, sleep, no one can crit you, and damage resistance against blugininhg, piercing, and Slashing damage).
If that isn't enough for you, you can take ritual caster, elemental adapt, and Magic Inniate feats.
If that isn't verstile enough for you, then Sorceror isn't the class for you, go play a wizard.
Also note you don't have to go as overboard as I did on the teleportation magic, I was playing to the, teleportation magic theme, but you don't really need all of them.
Sea Sorceror with teleportation focus at level 20.
Spell list
Cantrips- Shocking Grasp, Ray of Frost, Minor Illusion, Prestidigatation, Chill Touch, Firebolt.
1st level spells- Mage Armour, Chromatic Orb
2nd level spells- Misty Step, Mirror Image
3rd- Lightening Bolt, Major Image, Blink
4th- Dimesional Door
5th- Teleportation Circle, Cone of Cold
6th- Arcane Gate, Chain Lightening
7th-Planeshift, Teleport
8th- N/A
9th- Gate
I skipped 8th, didn't really like any of those spells for this character.
This character has 8 teleportation based spells, 3 defensive spells, 2 illusion spells and 1 illusion cantrip, 4 cold/lightening based spells, which you can put into higher slots for more damage and use metamagic on, 1 save or suck spell (planeshift).
For metamagic Twin Spell, Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, and, Heighten Spell.
Features: Font of Magic, Metamagic, Soul of the Sea (ability to breathwater and a swim speed), curse of the sea (reason for focus on lightening and cold spells), watery defence (resistance to fire damage, the ability to assume a watery form when hit as a reaction 1 a short rest, for damage reduction snd free movement), shifting form (a hole bunch of benifits when your moving), Water Soul (no need to breath, eat, sleep, no one can crit you, and damage resistance against blugininhg, piercing, and Slashing damage).
If that isn't enough for you, you can take ritual caster, elemental adapt, and Magic Inniate feats.
If that isn't verstile enough for you, then Sorceror isn't the class for you, go play a wizard.
Also note you don't have to go as overboard as I did on the teleportation magic, I was playing to the, teleportation magic theme, but you don't really need all of them.
The Spells at 9th level
Cantrips- same
1st- chromatic orb, mage armour
2nd- Misty Step, Mirror Image
3rd- Major Image, Lightening Bolt
4th- Ice Storm, Dimesional Door
5th- Teleportation Circle, Cone of Cold.
2 illusion spells - Illusion Cantrip, 3 teleportation spells, 3 Cold damage spells + 2 cold cantrips, 2 spells that can deal lightening damage + melee lightening damage cantrip, 1 fire damage dealing spell + fire dealing cantrip that can also be used to start fires (good for starting camp fire, oil, or the burning the, sails on an enemy ship), 1 damage spell that can deal acid/thunder/force/poison, 2 defensive spells, all the different uses of Prestidigstion.
Twin Spell and Empower Spell give more options.
Features: Sea Soul (Water Beathing and Swimming), Curse of the Sea, Shifting Form.
And 2 feats or +2 to a stat.
And what ever you get from your race.
Cantrips- same
1st- chromatic orb, mage armour
2nd- Misty Step, Mirror Image
3rd- Major Image, Lightening Bolt
4th- Ice Storm, Dimesional Door
5th- Teleportation Circle, Cone of Cold.
2 illusion spells - Illusion Cantrip, 3 teleportation spells, 3 Cold damage spells + 2 cold cantrips, 2 spells that can deal lightening damage + melee lightening damage cantrip, 1 fire damage dealing spell + fire dealing cantrip that can also be used to start fires (good for starting camp fire, oil, or the burning the, sails on an enemy ship), 1 damage spell that can deal acid/thunder/force/poison, 2 defensive spells, all the different uses of Prestidigstion.
Twin Spell and Empower Spell give more options.
Features: Sea Soul (Water Beathing and Swimming), Curse of the Sea, Shifting Form.
And 2 feats or +2 to a stat.
And what ever you get from your race.
Last edited:
ScuroNotte
Explorer
Thank you for the attempt.
You have not changed my opinion of the Sorcerer needing changes. There is a high level of frustration and disappointment when playing the Sorcerer as is written.
You have not changed my opinion of the Sorcerer needing changes. There is a high level of frustration and disappointment when playing the Sorcerer as is written.
All I can say is that I've played a dragon sorcerer to level 8, and a wild mage sorcerer (with 2 levels of wizard) to level 4. So far I haven't had any complaints, other than not recovering anything on a short rest (I think recovering a few sorcery points would be a good idea) - and I think it would be good for flavor reasons to have them gain additional known spells based on their bloodline.
Similar Threads
