D&D 5E Dragon Fire - the Drogon Initiative

[dave2008]

Heh. Fear Drogon, the Napalm Dragon

My own biggest beef with (large) dragon breath is the pitiful area.

I usually allow the dragon to breathe throughout a move, meaning you "paint" the cone or line for each square you enter as you fly by. Nothing ridiculous like shooting off in completely separate directions "to the right, to the left, to the right again". Mostly an unchanging angle of attack, but at least more than a pitiful 30 ft cone.

This doesn't affect adventurers (much), since once all of them are inside, it doesn't matter anymore.

But as verisimilitude, when a dragon attacks a village (or an army).

Yep, I've been thinking about strafing attacks as well. What you propose seems reasonable.

 

[dave2008]

Yeah, well, I feel you bro, but D&D isn't real life (like Westeros is )

IRL it's quite natural to be completely stopped in your tracks by ongoing fire damage.

But it doesn't fit D&D. Otherwise the tactic of staggering one Fireball each round would be much more popular (than it already is).

I'd simply drop that idea, and let the regular Concentration rules operate.

If you don't lose Concentration when an Ancient Red Dragon breathes on you, I don't think the laws of physics apply to you anylonger...

In other words: hit points.

All of this is covered by hit points. As soon as you realize that anyone blindly flailing about, screaming, jumping into water (or simply going up in smoke ) is unusually fanciful variants of "the goblin is at 0 hp. He drops dead" the sooner you realize this.

I agree that is the typical D&D approach, but I am specifically looking for something different. I want to put the fear back into breath weapons. Typically I do that by increasing damage, but I am now thinking that another approach might be more interesting and cinematic. Not typical D&D, but I already stated (in the OP I think) that this approach is not really in line with the tenants of 5e.

 

[dave2008]

Right. I would therefore just go with the ongoing damage in that case. That gives the players a trade-off which will vary based on the situation. The more hindrances you add to the effect, the more putting out the fire seems mandatory rather than a real choice.

But I want putting out the fire to be mandatory. I want there to be serious consequence to suffering a direct hit of dragon fire.

 

[iserith]

But I want putting out the fire to be mandatory. I want there to be serious consequence to suffering a direct hit of dragon fire.

I see. I guess you could just write the mechanic as:

The dragon exhales fire in a 90-foot cone. Each creature in the area must make a DC 24 Dexterity saving throw, taking 91 (26d6) fire damage or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature that fails its save takes an additional 21 (6d6) fire damage at the start of its next turn and then takes an action to put out the flames.

That's much easier.

 

[Ristamar]

But I want putting out the fire to be mandatory. I want there to be serious consequence to suffering a direct hit of dragon fire.

Assuming "direct hit" means a failed Dex save, 18d6 fire damage from an Adult Red Dragon is a pretty serious consequence for most PCs.

 

[Sunseeker]

All my dragons that do fire damage do fire damage. It that fire hits a flammable surface, it ignites. So, fighting a fire-breathing dragon on some rocks won't do anything. Fighting a fire-breathing dragon on the plains creates a brushfire. Since players are flammable they take XdY ongoing damage per turn where X is the dragon's age and Y is the die-type that breath weapon uses. In exchange, the initial damage is reduced. Brushfires created by dragonfire deal XdY damage to anyone caught in them until they are extinguished.

Acid-breathing dragons have the same effect, except their breath always creates difficult terrain (pools of acid) until extinguished.

For that silly green dragon who breathes the one weird type of damage, they create a poison cloud that moves it's length each round for X rounds where X is the dragon's age category. The cloud always deals full breath weapon damage.

Dragons that don't do ongoing damage (like lightning) get increased direct-damage damage and players wearing metal have disadvantage on saves.

As CapnZapp also suggests, my dragons can also "paint" their attacks, but I also let dragons choose if they breathe a cone or a line, or if they use all the dice of their breath and can use some of it the next round without needing a recharge.

Dragons are, on the whole, very weak opponents in 5E. They deal very little damage without their breath which is more or less an "alpha strike" that if they flub means they're gonna die.

 

[MechaPilot]

I'd say its not just the rape. The show has a pretty dour tone overall. The first few seasons have some pretty tough scenes to watch, and the good guys are on the ropes almost none stop. I totally understand that can be a hard thing to watch. But stick with it long enough, and all the villains eventually get what's coming to them. But I think you don't need to like the show to appreciate its portrayal of dragons.

For me, it's definitely the rape (which, from what I've heard, the show has far less of than the books did). And this is the reason why:

[SBLOCK]

Years ago I had an experience that almost caused be to quit playing D&D. My DM relocated, so I had to find a new group to game with. I found a group, but I didn't really know anyone there. During the game, the party bit off more than it could chew, and we were captured. I was the only female player, and I played the only female character in the group. The DM proceeded to have our captors rape my character. He even pushed me to roleplay the scene, describing what the rapist was doing to my character and asking me what my character was doing.

I was horrified to the point of silence.

When I looked around the table for support, the other players just stared at me and watched as my face turned pale, glancing back to the DM as he described the "action." Once I realized that yes, this was actually happening and they expected me to be a part of it, I grabbed my stuff and left as quickly as I could.

It was humiliating, terrifying, and degrading (I could only assume they were imagining me going through what was being done to my character). In retrospect, I think I was very fortunate that I didn't suffer a real life assault that night. However, as fortunate as I may have been that night, it was also a very scarring experience that informs my decisions about playing with strangers to this day. That's how I almost quit D&D for good

[/SBLOCK]

Consequently, I'm sure you can see why I'd have a very strong aversion to rape in my entertainment.

I don't think it is the budgets actually.... or at least, not just the budgets. There's a lot you can do with practical effects, as Dragon Slayer (1981) clearly shows. I think it is more a case of getting the mythology right. I really hate this trend of friendly dragons that talk. And D&D sure has its share of that, but I've always kept those types of dragons firmly out of my campaigns. I like dragons as a menace. The ultimate foe, that incinerates entire cities and fleets, and rips apart knights in shiny armors. And Game of Thrones may be first in actually portraying dragons like that. Last season gave us a bunch of dragons setting fire to an entire fleet of ships. And this season gives us even more dragon carnage!

Its been especially on my mind in regards to the pirate campaign that I'm currently running. I want my players to fear dragons, and what they could do to their ships. So in that respect I'm totally on board with what the OP is going for: Dragons raining fiery hell down on players.

Well yeah, it's definitely not just the budgets. I do think budgets have, at times, been a significant part of it though.

Also, I agree with your stance against friendly talking dragons. In my homebrew D&D setting, dragons are embodiments of destruction who establish lairs, hibernate, then wake and slaughter and feast on everything that's invaded a certain radius of their lair. Although they're cunning enough to understand and learn languages, they can't speak any more than any other beast can. They don't use magic; they actually hate it because it's one of the few things that reliably hurts them, and they're smart enough to wreck temples, libraries, colleges, and smithys before going after the rest of a town. Also, they have a rend armor ability where (in 5e) if you get clawed or bitten by a dragon and you rely on armor for your AC, attacks against you have advantage until you get your armor repaired (or remove it, or swap into a different suit).

 

[dave2008]

Nothing against you or your idea, but I am so sick of hearing about GoT.

Sorry, its the first time i have mentioned it on these threads I think.

 

[MechaPilot]

Sorry, its the first time i have mentioned it on these threads I think.

I get that. And I'm sorry if I came off as hostile. I didn't intend to. But GoT is practically everywhere (especially with the recently leaked episode), and it's hard to find a moment where people aren't talking about it. It's like trying to avoid politics in November.

Edit: Also, to be fair, I did actually talk about the subject you mentioned and didn't just complain about GoT being mentioned.

 

[dave2008]

I like the visual of victims flailing about in flames and panicking and all, but D&D doesn't generally model damage that way. Getting stabbed in the gut will also seriously limit your activities in the ensuing moments of life, but D&D doesn't care, it's just damage.

Maybe a special rule for creatures reduced to 0 hps by dragonfire? They can be saved if extinguished in a short number of rounds, otherwise they run/flail/roll about, spreading the flames around...? Oh, you could base it on the save: If you save but are still reduced to 0, you're on fire and will die promptly, but someone can save you?

Yes, as I believe I stated in the OP, this is not what DnD 5e is typically about. This is for something I want and since I only plan to use an ancient dragon as an end of campaign battle I think one flashy fire fight is just fine. This isn't something that is going to come up every session. I am talking about a once in a campaign experience.