D&D 5E Resting and the frikkin' Elephant in the Room

Whether you have 20 1/8th cultists, or 8 1/2 cultists, those farmers being sacrificed aren't going to be able to resist. In a deadly world like that, farming dies unless moved withing city walls or a standing army patrols constantly. Both of those constitute world building. The framework of the world shifts according to the deadliness of the encounter tables.

Again I disagree... a mob of farmers due to BA can more easily take out 8 1/2 cultists than 20 1/8th cultists... also why are the cultists murdering so many farmers that farming dies? This is what I mean by the broad "implications" statement... you're making assumptions that these cultists are literally out and about murdering and wantonly slaughtering the hamlet every single day. First they risk exposure, second... why? A few people come up missing around a full moon for a ritual(especially travelers or those passing through) sure but just murdering the entire hamlet (along with their food source)... aside from it being a cartoon villain-ish motivation...why would they do this? A deadly encounter for the adventurers does not in and of itself dictate a deadly encounter for the inhabitants of the world and this is a prime example of why that's not a given.

First, most people in a hamlet aren't fighting types, so making it so that an entire hamlet comes out to fight would be a feat of world building. Second, they aren't going to be all standing in a group 24/7, so they will be picked off and whittled down by raids unless they world build defenses that hamlets typically don't have.

Okay putting aside the rallying of the hamlet as a pretty ingrained fantasy trope... you're telling me rather than band together and fight/hang 8 people (or... you know hire some enterprising outsiders to end the full moon murders) 42 other people would just let them kill them off... really? See this makes no sense to me.
 
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I am still trying to understand why this is a given though (well outside of personal preference)... why should or do the encounters for PC's have to apply to the populace at large? I've seen no real explanation for why this must be true... well again except for personal preference and at that point it kind of proves this isn't an objective thing but instead something a particular DM chooses to make true in his world and thus chooses to create the associated problems around it.
My reading of the discussion is that this comes down to a philosophical point. When we take Tolkien's view, where we value consistency and think of our fantasy worlds as having a life apart from their authors, we envision that the mechanics must supervene on the world. That is because if something happens in our world, and our world is somehow independently alive, then everything else in our world must react consistently. It might be that we assert that cultists are frightened of settlers, so the hamlet is in no danger. If so, then that applies everywhere there are cultists and hamlets. Consistency in this context is not concerned with insisting on whether we like apples or pears, rather it is concerned with saying that whichever we choose we must apply and stick that. If we choose pears, then wherever there are pears we covet them and wherever there are apples we dislike them.

Another approach is to treat the fantasy reality as arbitrary and whimsical. Cultists are frightened of settlers except when they are not, and no consistency applies to when they are and when they aren't. I believe players do better in worlds that value consistency. My observation is that players treasure consistency, in fact. They love persistent details. They enjoy being able to work things out and turn out to be right sometimes.

But again with the effects of BA those stragglers who are disrupting civilization can be deadly encounters without a massive increase in numbers. We can have a band of 10 bandits who are any CR we want and yet their limited numbers makes it suicide for them to openly and brazenly attack a settlement. This is what I've been trying to convey (I think unsuccessfully) throughout this conversation... there is no one set D&D X (where X is a monster). As part of the game any X can be modified or even created anew in any way the DM wants thus it becomes a wholly self imposed problem when you choose to make your deadly encounter for a party of 3rd level characters 20 (CR 1/8 cultists) vs. say 8 (CR 1/2) cultists. The logistics, effect on environment, worldbuilding implications, etc. are totally different for one encounter vs. the other... even without assuming the encounters are a mechanic for player interaction as opposed to a generator for worldbuilding.
It's not clear to me what you mean by this. DM fiat aside, a Shield spell is cast with a Reaction no matter who the DM is. That's a basic assumption of the game: it's why we part with good cash for hundreds of pages of mechanics.

It's being claimed there are implications in using 3 deadly encounters to balance the game... while I'm saying the construction of said encounters can vary those implications so much that unless you mean it in the most generic sense possible (as in any encounter balance system will have implications) then it's a moot point
This point might be tautological. You seem to be saying that "deadly" has no meaning in terms of implications for players. Given deadly has no meaning, it can't mean anything to have any given number of deadly encounters in our world. Taken to absurdity for the sake of the argument, 1 deadly encounter for our level 4 PCs is the same as dropping 20 deadly encounters together on them. Is that what you are saying? Is there some set of deadly encounters that you admit is meaningfully differentiated from another set, or are all sets of deadly encounters the same: implication-less?
 

Again I disagree... a mob of farmers due to BA can more easily take out 8 1/2 cultists than 20 1/8th cultists... also why are the cultists murdering so many farmers that farming dies? This is what I mean by the broad "implications" statement... you're making assumptions that these cultists are literally out and about murdering and wantonly slaughtering the hamlet every single day. First they risk exposure, second... why? A few people come up missing around a full moon for a ritual(especially travelers or those passing through) sure but just murdering the entire hamlet (along with their food source)... aside from it being a cartoon villain-ish motivation...why would they do this? A deadly encounter for the adventurers does not in and of itself dictate a deadly encounter for the inhabitants of the world and this is a prime example of why that's not a given.
Essentially your argument is - variance breaks everything! World building always has to cope with variance. If our physics is that rivers generally run down hill, the odd exception to that doesn't matter. Perhaps one or two magical rivers flow uphill. World building is a large scale general activity. As DM you make whatever verdict you want regarding cultists and villagers, and then that applies almost everywhere. Generally, where there are Wizards in D&D worlds, they use spell components or focuses so there is some degree of demand for those things. The odd wizard that doesn't use those things isn't a problem. On the whole, Wizards can't cast cure. So villagers usually go the clerics for that. Archmages toast goblins with level 8 Magic Missiles spells. That establishes a fact about the pecking order. If ancient red dragons throng a continent, any CR1 NPC who hasn't found a way to get along with them who wants to live there is in for difficulty.
 

My reading of the discussion is that this comes down to a philosophical point. When we take Tolkien's view, where we value consistency and think of our fantasy worlds as having a life apart from their authors, we envision that the mechanics must supervene on the world. That is because if something happens in our world, and our world is somehow independently alive, then everything else in our world must react consistently. It might be that we assert that cultists are frightened of settlers, so the hamlet is in no danger. If so, then that applies everywhere there are cultists and hamlets. Consistency in this context is not concerned with insisting on whether we like apples or pears, rather it is concerned with saying that whichever we choose we must apply and stick that. If we choose pears, then wherever there are pears we covet them and wherever there are apples we dislike them.

Is it any less consistent that adventurers are more prone to running into deadly encounters? How is that more or less consistent than if adventurers run into deadly encounters... the entire populace must run into them as well? It makes me question whether the issue really is one of consistency?

Another approach is to treat the fantasy reality as arbitrary and whimsical. Cultists are frightened of settlers except when they are not, and no consistency applies to when they are and when they aren't. I believe players do better in worlds that value consistency. My observation is that players treasure consistency, in fact. They love persistent details. They enjoy being able to work things out and turn out to be right sometimes.

I'm not sure anyone is arguing against this though. I think consistency can be attained with either approach as long as you are... consistent with it. And yes I agree players do better in consistent worlds because they come to know what to expect and thus can make better informed decisions.


It's not clear to me what you mean by this. DM fiat aside, a Shield spell is cast with a Reaction no matter who the DM is. That's a basic assumption of the game: it's why we part with good cash for hundreds of pages of mechanics.

I agree the game has basic (hard?) rules... the way certain things work. I just don't agree a specific monster or NPC is one of those things.

This point might be tautological. You seem to be saying that "deadly" has no meaning in terms of implications for players. Given deadly has no meaning, it can't mean anything to have any given number of deadly encounters in our world. Taken to absurdity for the sake of the argument, 1 deadly encounter for our level 4 PCs is the same as dropping 20 deadly encounters together on them. Is that what you are saying? Is there some set of deadly encounters that you admit is meaningfully differentiated from another set, or are all sets of deadly encounters the same: implication-less?

No I agree it has implications for players and their characters... I don't agree it has to have implications on the wider world to have a consistent game. Adventurers and other ne'er to do's encounter monsters and NPC's more than the regular populace... that's consistent and has little impact on the world at large...

What I am saying is that a deadly encounter does not dictate the form that said deadly encounter takes and that when using 2-3 deadly encounters a day to balance the combat I don't believe it's impossible to come up with encounters that fit the environment without wide spread ramifications on the world at large. Now I can understand an aesthetic preference not to have to do this... but I don't agree that the approach itself has to have any more world building implications than the generic D&D tropes that are part of the game as a whole..
 

Been off this thread for a few days so rather than respond to anything directly I want to jump in with a thought as I think I started this tangent with the comment that PCs need only face 3 (deadly) encounters a day to be challenged.

It seems there is a disconnect between the idea of Adventuring Days and Mundane Days. Adventuring Days, with the expected 3-18 encounters, in my mind occur when the PCs decide to go and tackle some problem they think they can handle. Mundane Days represent the regular steady state of the world or region that they are in, and are not meant to push characters to their limits. This allows the mechanics to inform your world building. The same would hold true if there was 1 expected encounter a day since the deadliness of that single encounter would still have major implications for the state of the world.

There is also campaign building implications in the decision to use Days or Weeks as your unit of measure, as which is chosen will effect the type of pacing your campaign will have. To have variable pacing, at the very least, you would need the concept of rest only being allowed in "safe" locations, or you could base ability recovery on facing encounters with some sort of point system. I think that's the real "elephant" in that the current WoTC rule set does not include a good solution to allow variable pacing, which does appear to be an oversight that should be corrected in a future rule book.
 

Essentially your argument is - variance breaks everything! World building always has to cope with variance. If our physics is that rivers generally run down hill, the odd exception to that doesn't matter. Perhaps one or two magical rivers flow uphill. World building is a large scale general activity. As DM you make whatever verdict you want regarding cultists and villagers, and then that applies almost everywhere. Generally, where there are Wizards in D&D worlds, they use spell components or focuses so there is some degree of demand for those things. The odd wizard that doesn't use those things isn't a problem. On the whole, Wizards can't cast cure. So villagers usually go the clerics for that. Archmages toast goblins with level 8 Magic Missiles spells. That establishes a fact about the pecking order. If ancient red dragons throng a continent, any CR1 NPC who hasn't found a way to get along with them who wants to live there is in for difficulty.

I might be off here... but I feel like you're conflating things that are defined in the rules (say a spells duration) with things that aren't (the behavior patterns of cultists). I f not cool, I may be misunderstanding.

My argument isn't that variance breaks everything! It's that it actually happens in the real world and that a world so consistent that it doesn't ever take place (the entire populace encounters what the adventurers encounter) is no more realistic (and this I think is what the argument is really about though I could be wrong) or consistent (in relationship to the real world) than one where the encounters only affect adventurers. I'd even go so far as to say that D&D tropes tend to focus around the variance when it comes to adventurers in the fiction.

Also again I get the impression we are conflating "laws" of the world... spellcasters use components and focuses with "non-laws" (can't think of a better term right now) how cultists and farmers act... there's no rules governing this and I'm not sure why say cultists of Asmodeus would act the same way as cultists who worship aberrations. Or why farmers from an isolated tropical paradise would respond to an emerging threat in the same way farmers on the frontier of an unconquered territory would. I think I see the things you are comparing as fundamentally different.
 

Is it any less consistent that adventurers are more prone to running into deadly encounters? How is that more or less consistent than if adventurers run into deadly encounters... the entire populace must run into them as well?
Apologies if I'm exaggerating any divergence in our thinking: we could be more in agreement that disagreement. Say I write an encounter table that has angry ancient red dragons thronging every part of the continent except one small hill in the south. Conversely, if you stick to that hill you'll use a different encounter table where there are none. There must be a forcefield around that hill or something. Dragons can't overfly it.

Everywhere Else Encounter Table
01-75 1 Angry Ancient Red Dragon
76-99 2 Angry Ancient Red Dragons
00 Nothing

Southern Hill Encounter Table
01-75 1 Friendly Wombat
76-99 2 Disinterested Platypuses
00 Nothing

My understanding is that no matter who you are on that continent, if you travel most places you'll quite likely encounter some ancient red dragons. Right? Or are you saying that encounter tables only ever apply to PCs? If that is how you play them, then your point makes sense. What I don't understand however is why you play them that way? For me, when Nix the NPC Noble rides out into the Swamp of Terrifying Thronging Trolls, he risks running into the odd troll.

Swamp of Terrifying Thronging Trolls
01-75 10 Terrifying Trolls
76-99 1 Angry Ancient Red Dragon (who finds troll flesh unappealing)
00 Nothing
 

I'm a little confused.

How does campaign pacing impact world building?
Let's turn it around. Campaign-building, which subsumes world-building, establishes an appropriate range of campaign-pacings. If the game is balanced around a certain number of encounters between rests, it encroaches on the DMs prerogative to establish whatever the heck pacing he wants, or to put it another way, narrows his choice of campaigns he can run, without modifying something in that balance equation.

He could change the pacing and tone of his campaign, making it more frenetic and consistently working in time pressure. He could change the rest-duration/frequency factor and run his campaign in a languid years-and-continents-spanning sweep, instead. He can re-balance classes & monsters to free up a varied range of pacing options without changing the rest/recovery rules, and run a varied range, with some adventures frenetic and against the clock, and others of more sweeping scope. Or, he could accomplish similar results by ruling on the opportunity, timing, duration, and benefits of rests differently depending upon the pacing he's currently using.

There are clearly many solutions, but most come down either to fitting the campaign to the mechanics (whether that's the default mechanics or a module) or re-building the mechanics (whether that's the classes/monsters or the rest/recover rules) to fit the campaign.

The former sort place less demand on game-design skills, but create restrictions on how you run your campaign.


I acknowledge that creating a fully realised, perfectly consistent world cannot be done based on RPG mechanics. I disagree that we cannot reflect on those mechanics and incorporate them meaningfully into our game worlds.
In that context, 'fully realized' and 'perfectly consistent' are in tension. You can have, or strive for, a perfectly consistent world based on consistently applying perfectly clear & consistent mechanics (or with 5e-style mechanics, recording every ruling and treating it as iron-clad precedent) without regard to, well, anything else. At best, you may end up with a Pratchett-esque world, but that could be entertaining.

By the same token, you could come up with a fully-realized world without any mechanics - or game, or players - great authors do it all the time. ;)


I am still trying to understand why this is a given though (well outside of personal preference)... why should or do the encounters for PC's have to apply to the populace at large? I've seen no real explanation for why this must be true... well again except for personal preference
It's the difference between approaching the world as nothing more than a painted back-drop for the PCs adventures (an absolute 'narrativist' approach), and approaching it as a 'real' place with an objective existence & set of laws in which the status of 'PC' has no meaning or impact (an absolute 'simulationist' approach). Those are two extremes that probably aren't really applicable to any actual game anyone were going to run for more than a session or two (before their players all mysteriously get too busy to show up), but, in theoretical discussions like this, they come up, because extremes are easier to construct models around.

and at that point it kind of proves this isn't an objective thing but instead something a particular DM chooses to make true in his world and thus chooses to create the associated problems around it.
One thing that DM Empowerment definitely does is allow us to decide how our we & our players will experience the problems caused by problematic aspects of the system.

We can take the default system, and run just let the campaign play out organically, and just deal with encounters generally being 'easier' than they say on the tin, and classes being decidedly imbalanced, and just let it sort itself out - players will naturally gravitate towards the most effective class they can enjoy playing, and DMs learn how challenging encounter really are.

We can take the same system and impose a story-line that consistently applies time-pressure and other factors to make days where 'the action' happens fit the encounter:difficult:short-rest:long-rest ratio that theoretically helps with avoiding the above.

We can make (possibly very extensive) mechanical changes to the game to allow it to run in a balanced/consistent manner without either of the above being considerations.

But, no matter what we do, some price is being paid.

That's the 'objective' portion. The 'subjective' portion, is that some folks may be downright enthusiastic about 'paying' a certain 'price.' The group who all want to play long-rest-recharge classes and revel in overwhelming trans-deadly encounters with nova tactics to turn them into cakewalks, for instance, will not consider the first option a 'problem,' at all, they'll consider it 'supporting their style.' Heck, they might still keep playing 3.x/PF because 5e doesn't do a good enough job of providing that support.


Whether you have 20 1/8th cultists, or 8 1/2 cultists, those farmers being sacrificed aren't going to be able to resist. In a deadly world like that, farming dies unless moved withing city walls or a standing army patrols constantly.
UNLESS the world is just a backdrop for the PC's extraordinary adventures. Cultists appear an wreak havoc only when such has a role to play in the heroes' story arc. For centuries before, no one may have heard a peep from this cult it's just an old mostly-forgotten tale, the it just happens to spring up in a deadly resurgence just as a band of heroes just happen to band together who are able to stop them.
Because: fiction.
 
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Apologies if I'm exaggerating any divergence in our thinking: we could be more in agreement that disagreement. Say I write an encounter table that has angry ancient red dragons thronging every part of the continent except one small hill in the south. Conversely, if you stick to that hill you'll use a different encounter table where there are none. There must be a forcefield around that hill or something. Dragons can't overfly it.

Everywhere Else Encounter Table
01-75 1 Angry Ancient Red Dragon
76-99 2 Angry Ancient Red Dragons
00 Nothing

Southern Hill Encounter Table
01-75 1 Friendly Wombat
76-99 2 Disinterested Platypuses
00 Nothing

My understanding is that no matter who you are on that continent, if you travel most places you'll quite likely encounter some ancient red dragons. Right? Or are you saying that encounter tables only ever apply to PCs? If that is how you play them, then your point makes sense. What I don't understand however is why you play them that way? For me, when Nix the NPC Noble rides out into the Swamp of Terrifying Thronging Trolls, he risks running into the odd troll.

Swamp of Terrifying Thronging Trolls
01-75 10 Terrifying Trolls
76-99 1 Angry Ancient Red Dragon (who finds troll flesh unappealing)
00 Nothing

I am saying that if I created the above encounter table for my game it would serve two purposes listed below, though not necessarily presented in order of importance...

1. To provide a way to either measure or enforce the threat level/XP of the adventuring day for my PC's

2. To give/provide the chance that the PC's encounter a particular thing within the area.

What said chart doesn't do is tell me what the chances are for every NPC to encounter X... or how often does X encounter Y (where Y is a different monster) or how prevalent X is in a particular section of my world... all it tells me is what the PC's chances of encountering them are....


I guess my counter question to you is why do you use the exact same chances to determine everyone encountering such things? Is Nix the NPC noble traversing the exact same path the adventurers take? Is he taking the same precautions? Is he as enticing a target? Is he as infamous or known as the PC's... In other words I don't do it that way because I don't see Nix as having the same chance of an encounter as the PC's. I'll also readily admit I tend to go with the narrative clause that most sword and sorcery fiction, high fantasy fiction, and even D&D fiction use in that adventurers are just more likely to encounter these things than those minding their business and looking to avoid desolate ruins, deep places in the wild, abandoned temples to old gods and so on.
 

It seems there is a disconnect between the idea of Adventuring Days and Mundane Days. Adventuring Days, with the expected 3-18 encounters, in my mind occur when the PCs decide to go and tackle some problem they think they can handle. Mundane Days represent the regular steady state of the world or region that they are in, and are not meant to push characters to their limits. This allows the mechanics to inform your world building.
All good, except that once again it runs aground on "travel" adventures; the sort of adventure where the PCs think they're going to Mt. McGuffin to do some Heroic Deeds but the actual adventure this time is in fact the journey to get there. (Mt. McGuffin itself is the second module in the series...)

In a travel adventure, Mundane Days and Adventuring Days cross paths because what the PCs are travelling through is in theory the regular steady (mundane) state of the perhaps non-civilized bits of the world and yet they're finding danger (adventuring) at every turn...which sets a standard for other similar regions and thus affects worldbuilding.

Tony Vargas said:
It's the difference between approaching the world as nothing more than a painted back-drop for the PCs adventures (an absolute 'narrativist' approach), and approaching it as a 'real' place with an objective existence & set of laws in which the status of 'PC' has no meaning or impact (an absolute 'simulationist' approach). Those are two extremes ...
The latter, where 'PC' status has no meaning, is not to me an extreme at all. In fact, it's my default - inhabitants of the game world don't go around with little 'PC' or 'NPC' stickers on their foreheads and nor should they. The PCs, if they're going to stand out at all, do so because of their deeds (for better or worse), not their special-snowflakiness. There's a mechanical difference between special characters and commoners, but by no means are all special characters PCs: nobility, NPC adventurers, just about anyone with class levels - all these count as specials, along with the PCs.

The way I see it, the random blacksmith you meet in town today could end up being your PC next year when you need a replacement and you roll 'blacksmith' as her secondary skill.

Lan-"has anyone ever had the cojones to name their character 'Snowflake'?"-efan
 

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