D&D 5E Observations of a new player

[Imaro]

It's very weird they made levels one and two the simple levels for new players but also the most brutally hard levels. And they don't last long either way.

Very wishy washy design.

I don't think it is. I actually don't think most new players have a problem with the lower levels being hard, it's kind of implicit that if there are 20 levels that the lowest levels will be the hardest... I also think it's good to set the expectation that death is a viable outcome early on in the game (less attachment to a character, less time to create a character, more likely to want to switch to a different character, levels go by quickly and are easily skipped if preferred, etc.) as opposed to it being a sudden surprise at mid or high level.

IMO wishy washy design would have been not making the outcome of death apparent at lower levels so that careful play wasn't fostered and if it did happen at mid to high level it becomes more of a gotcha to new players... or making you super resilient at lower levels with the game becoming more deadly as you level up.

 

[KahlessNestor]

I have been having a problrm killing characters at low levels. I think the next game I will just have them make backup characters. It's hard to tell a newb, "Here's the PHB. Go sit in a corner and make a new character" when you helped them build the first one. Always have to stop to answer questions, or just stop playing outright to do characters.

Sent from my SM-G900P using EN World mobile app

 

[Tony Vargas]

It's very weird they made levels one and two the simple levels for new players but also the most brutally hard levels. And they don't last long either way.

It's a necessary design, given the expectations.

Speeding through the lowest/deadliest levels was the best they could do to make the game more fun & accessible while still feeling like it's 'really D&D.' Yes, it probably sends some new players packing, but that's part of keeping the D&D feel, too. D&D has never been for everyone, it's always been part of it's appeal that it's kinda an exclusive club. Not giving up in frustration after your nth 1st-level character dies and sticking it out until you get a character to 5th level and can bother giving it a name, that's just a rite of passage.

I have been having a problrm killing characters at low levels.

Just throw a few more monsters into each encounter. Numbers tell heavily in BA. Use 'focus fire' a little more, your PCs should be dropping like flies.

 

[The Human Target]

I don't think it is. I actually don't think most new players have a problem with the lower levels being hard, it's kind of implicit that if there are 20 levels that the lowest levels will be the hardest... I also think it's good to set the expectation that death is a viable outcome early on in the game (less attachment to a character, less time to create a character, more likely to want to switch to a different character, levels go by quickly and are easily skipped if preferred, etc.) as opposed to it being a sudden surprise at mid or high level.

IMO wishy washy design would have been not making the outcome of death apparent at lower levels so that careful play wasn't fostered and if it did happen at mid to high level it becomes more of a gotcha to new players... or making you super resilient at lower levels with the game becoming more deadly as you level up.

I don't know if the two sessions first and second level are supposed to last is enough time to teach new players much, nor do I think establishing a level of deadliness the rest of the game abandons is really a good thing.

 

[guachi]

GWM is best thing ever at level 1. With a greatsword you kill or have a good chance of killing any low level enemy you meet and hit. That means a bonus action attack at another immediately after. It's flipping amazing!

Yeah. You don't take GWM at level 1 for the -5/+10 part; you take it for the free bonus attack. With a 16 Strength, you have a 99.07% chance of killing a goblin as long as you hit it. That's crazy! Anything with 12 HP you still have a 50% chance of dropping it in one blow.

 

[Imaro]

I don't know if the two sessions first and second level are supposed to last is enough time to teach new players much, nor do I think establishing a level of deadliness the rest of the game abandons is really a good thing.

There's not really much, specific to level, to learn at 1st or even 2nd level but it sets a foundation without having to worry about numerous class specific abilities.... As for deadliness decreasing as one levels up... I think that's the progression most new players would expect or be familiar with... I certainly don't think most would expect to stay at the same level of fragility or become more fragile as their level increases...

 

[Tony Vargas]

As for deadliness decreasing as one levels up... I think that's the progression most new players would expect or be familiar with... I certainly don't think most would expect to stay at the same level of fragility or become more fragile as their level increases...

Isn't the expectation outside of the D&D echo-chamber that things get harder as you advance, but you become better-able to deal with them? You earn extra lives and memorize patterns, but each new level you unlock is harder than the last? Elite special-forces get sent on more dangerous missions? AP calculus is harder than bone-head math?
...stuff like that?

, nor do I think establishing a level of deadliness the rest of the game abandons is really a good thing.

It borders on conspiracy theory, but it could be a fiendishly clever way to reconcile the conflicting demands for both a stupidly deadly feel and an easy-mode feel (demands mostly in the form of straw men pushed by those wanting the opposite, but still, demands we've heard plenty of during WotC's tenure). By presenting an initial player experience of overwhelming, random lethality, the game creates a perception of deadliness, so that when that lethality quickly wears off and becomes marshmallow like, players feel a sense of accomplishment and mastery, as if they have entered some kind of D&Der elite.

OK, 'borders on' in the sense of being on the wrong side of that border....

 

[Imaro]

Isn't the expectation outside of the D&D echo-chamber that things get harder as you advance, but you become better-able to deal with them? You earn extra lives and memorize patterns, but each new level you unlock is harder than the last? Elite special-forces get sent on more dangerous missions? AP calculus is harder than bone-head math?
...stuff like that?

What medium are we talking about? Other roleplaying games, videogames, something else?


EDIT: Also we are speaking to deadliness... a task can become harder without it's deadliness necessarily increasing

 

[Tony Vargas]

What medium are we talking about? Other roleplaying games, videogames, something else?

Expectations shaped by video games and actual, IRL, expectations based on experience, the structure of institutions, fiction, etc...

And, yes 'difficulty' and 'deadliness' are pretty nearly synonymous in the context of D&D - character death being an obvious indicator of failure - even if they aren't generally synonymous in, say, AP calculus.

 

[Imaro]

Expectations shaped by video games and actual, IRL, expectations based on experience, the structure of institutions, fiction, etc...

Yeah going to go with what I said earlier... in general in most videogames (with the exception of a few outliers like Dark Souls) characters get more life, hearts, durability, etc. as they grow in level and (especially in open world games) this doesn't necessarily equate to an equal increase in difficulty in the game. Drawing a blank on actual IRL expectations that would be based on gaining levels so if you have any feel free to share (though I'd argue the world is certainly more dangerous for a lone or party of infants alone in the world vs. adults, but not sure that really equates to level). I'm also not really familiar with much fiction outside of D&D that equates character power in rising levels so again if you have any examples please provide them.

And, yes 'difficulty' and 'deadliness' are pretty nearly synonymous in the context of D&D - character death being an obvious indicator of failure - even if they aren't generally synonymous in, say, AP calculus.

And I disagree... A DC 15 lock is more difficult than a DC 10 lock and yet neither is more deadly... There are plenty of examples in D&D where difficulty and deadliness don't equate 1:1.