D&D 5E Warlock Class Feature: Exploding Blast

[Irda Ranger]

You are understood but Eldritch blast is still better than all that in most circumstances most of the time. Focus fire is typically better than small aoe spells even if the aoe spell does slightly more total damage after all targets are accounted for (this is because focus fire) Couple that with eldritch blasts ability to be a decent two target aoe in its own right and I'm not seeing your proposed change as anything other than making a few cantrips situationally better than eldritch blast. its only when 3+ creatures can be caught in your air and no friendlys that your proposal is distinctly better than eldritch blast.

Okay, so are you of the opinion then that the relative spread of adding Agonizing Blast to AoE would be necessary to make it balanced?

If you take Fire Bolt (2d10), add Agonizing Blast (+3-5), and multiply by 2x for the DMG's suggested AoE multiplier, you end up doing (on average) 11 HP/turn more damage than Eldritch Blast. Sometimes less (because they're too sprea out), but sometimes also a lot more. Eldritch Blast plus Hex reduces the spread in favor of "Exploding Fire Bolt" down to +8 HP/turn at 11th level and +5 HP/turn at 17th level.

Does that seem too good? Or do you think focus fire/spread fire is a fair trade-off for 10 HP/turn of raw damage output?

 

[Irda Ranger]

Fire Bolt is not on the Warlock's spell list, tho.

The very first rule proposal from the first post:

1) Give Warlocks access to all the other damaging Cantrips

(But I actually meant, Wizard cantrips. I didn't mean to imply Cleric, Druid, or Bard.)

 

[Ganymede81]

Wait, so the first step of fixing the problem of Eldritch Blast spamming is to give them a bunch of cantrips they don't ordinarily have and wouldn't ordinarily use, then dramatically boosting them in power so the Warlock might consider spamming them instead?

I wash my hands of this.

 

[FrogReaver]

Okay, so are you of the opinion then that the relative spread of adding Agonizing Blast to AoE would be necessary to make it balanced?

If you take Fire Bolt (2d10), add Agonizing Blast (+3-5), and multiply by 2x for the DMG's suggested AoE multiplier, you end up doing (on average) 11 HP/turn more damage than Eldritch Blast. Sometimes less (because they're too sprea out), but sometimes also a lot more. Eldritch Blast plus Hex reduces the spread in favor of "Exploding Fire Bolt" down to +8 HP/turn at 11th level and +5 HP/turn at 17th level.

Does that seem too good? Or do you think focus fire/spread fire is a fair trade-off for 10 HP/turn of raw damage output?

all else being equal I think the aoe cantrips would be closer to balanced with the damage.

One thing to consider though is that an aoe cantrips caster isn't going to really use hex much. It's a very limited benefit for them. So they get an extra spell compared to the hex eldritch blast warlock. I'm not sure how to weight that part. I'd have to study on it some.

Basically we are looking at hex + eldritch blast + agonizing blast and the trade offs vs any cantrips + agonizing blast and no hex but a different spell.

But in terms of damage if hex wasn't a spell then we would probably be in the right spot worth he +Channing's to damage added in.

 

[Satyrn]

So since taking Eldritch Blast down a peg or two isn't an option, I'm trying to lift the other Cantrips up to its level.

If that's your goal, why not create invocations for other cantrips? It seems like a less intrusive fix than inserting class features.

 

[Gadget]

I think Eldritch Blast is, by design, the go to attack option for Warlocks across levels. And I'm okay with that. It is somewhat thematic, if repetitive. I understand the complaint the EB is repetitive and boring, but I don't see much difference to a Warlock pew, pew, pewing with EB, and using Firebolt, Acid Spash, Ray of Frost, etc. I would like to see things that differentiate the Warlock more and help it fill out better. Perhaps a melee equivalent of EB, or more invocations that cause the EB to do different things: Charm, fear, weaken, or turn the target into a zombie.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think Eldritch Blast is, by design, the go to attack option for Warlocks across levels. And I'm okay with that. It is somewhat thematic, if repetitive. I understand the complaint the EB is repetitive and boring, but I don't see much difference to a Warlock pew, pew, pewing with EB, and using Firebolt, Acid Spash, Ray of Frost, etc. I would like to see things that differentiate the Warlock more and help it fill out better. Perhaps a melee equivalent of EB, or more invocations that cause the EB to do different things: Charm, fear, weaken, or turn the target into a zombie.

While I like the flavor of the Warlock class I can't say that the mechanics really capture that flavor very well.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Wait, so the first step of fixing the problem of Eldritch Blast spamming is to give them a bunch of cantrips they don't ordinarily have and wouldn't ordinarily use, then dramatically boosting them in power so the Warlock might consider spamming them instead?

I think you and I probably have a different conception with what the problem with Warlock is. I am fine with them being a Cantrip-combatant. I don't see that as any different from a Fighter always using weapon attacks. I just want to give them more Cantrips besides Eldritch Blast to choose from, sort of like how Fighters and Barbarians have a big weapon list (with weapons of varying properties) to choose from.

If you want Warlocks to not use Cantrips at all, you need to give them something else to do that's equally effective. Like more spell slots. But then you can't have a limited-slot, SR-based casting class, and you basically just end up making the Sorcerer again. I don't want to change the Warlock's spellcasting system, so the only fix to "everyone takes EB" is give them other Cantrips to choose from.

 

[Irda Ranger]

If that's your goal, why not create invocations for other cantrips? It seems like a less intrusive fix than inserting class features.

Wheter's it's a class feature or Invocation is six-of-one, half-a-dozen of the other. The important question is whether you think an AoE Cantrip is balanced with Eldritch Blast.

 

[Satyrn]

Wheter's it's a class feature or Invocation is six-of-one, half-a-dozen of the other. The important question is whether you think an AoE Cantrip is balanced with Eldritch Blast.

That seems like a different question again, though.

WotC hasn't given us one AoE cantrip that I recall - poison spray - so we have a decent answer to your question: An AoE cantrip that looks like poison spray can be considered balanced with eldritch blast.

But I think you're really asking about AoE cantrips balanced with an Agonizing Eldritch Blast. And my answer is that an AoE cantrip should be weaker than an Agonizing Blast, because that Agonizing Blast is balanced by not having power from some other invocation you could have chosen instead.

I also don't think that a class feature that turns firebolt into an AoE cantrip to rival Agonizing Blast is the equivalent to an invocation that does so. If the class feature turns firebolt into Agonizing Blast's equal, then the warlock has no need to select Agonizing Blast, and now gets powered up by getting to choose some other invocation. Well, that actually might mean you've reached your goal, since you are trying to steer your players away from selecting Agonizing Blast.

So, yeah.

But I still think an invocation that powers up AoE cantrips to compete with Agonizing is a smaller change.

I also think both changes will, at best, turn an eldritch blast spamming warlock into a AoE firebolt spammer. Does that really improve things?