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D&D 5E Charisma- Good ability ... or OMNIVOROUS DESTROYER OF D&D?

  • Thread starter Thread starter lowkey13
  • Start date Start date

Do you think that charisma is OP in 5e?

  • Yes. Charisma needs to be dealt with before it swallows every ability.

    Votes: 7 8.9%
  • No. Charisma is just right.

    Votes: 31 39.2%
  • What? I failed my save; I want MOAR CHARISMA!

    Votes: 4 5.1%
  • Other. I will explain in the comments.

    Votes: 6 7.6%
  • I refuse to the respond to the rantings of a madman.

    Votes: 31 39.2%

  • Poll closed .
I can already hear the crying and gnashing of the grognards .... that someone would say that basing your saving throws on your level is anathema to D&D?


:)

I imagine a lot of grognards wouldn't touch a thread like this, after all neither a wizard who has an imp familiar who remembers his/her spells instead of a spell book or a wizard who tattoos spells onto themselves instead of having a spell book (okay Pathfinder has been a bad influence on me) really needs their own classes, much less deserve an argument about whether they are the same or different.
 

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Sorcerers shouldn't be Cha, they should be Int. It's "street smarts" not "book smarts" but it's still smarts.
Depends on the concept of the Sorcerer, a Sorcerer that's doing exactly what wizards do, but by sheer talent rather than training, sure. One that's evoking effects something like other casters do, but because he's just brimming with magical power because his great-grandmother was a dragon or his dad was a demon, OTOH, maybe not so much. CHA makes some sense, though not as much as in some prior eds, in 5e, it includes things like 'confidence' and 'commanding personality.' CON, if one's power comes quite literally from your blood, as a quality of your physical being, could make sense (and isn't completely unprecedented, some 4e Warlocks keyed off CON).
OTOH, though it's never been so in D&D, a Sorcerer, by definition, deals with spirits for power (a lot more like a D&D warlock, really), and CHA is the deal-mak'n stat.

Then more DMs should implement the rule that you can key skills off of non-standard stats if you have a good reason for it.
Oh, absolutely, DMs should routinely call for checks in a stat+skill or skill+stat format. Roll CHA+History. Roll Intimidate + STR. Good variant, more DMs should use it.

Because Constitution is important to everyone, it's important to no one. It's the reverse dump stat for pretty much every character. You take your good, but not best, ability and put it in con. But it's also not good at anything, really. It's just kind of there ... like it has always been. It's both really important, and not particularly important.
Thing about CON is hps, it's reasonably to very important for saves, though there aren't multiple skills that use it, CON checks can certainly come up, but because of the way it adds to every HD you roll - and you gain 20 HD over 20 levels - it can account for like half your hps or more, quite easily.

Moving Warlock to Int makes a load of sense
Warlocks make a deal with the devil (well, an infernal, fey, or Lovecraftian power). CHA helps you make deals. (INT helps with the fine print, I guess.)

Paladin actually makes more sense as Charisma casters than Wisdom, because they don't know what they're talking about, just talking out their @$$.
Really, adventurers should have a WIS maximum - if your WIS is higher than X, you find something better to do with your life than go adventuring.

As for saves... I'd personally want a complete re-work of the saves for 5.5/6E. Rather than having good and bad saves, make all saves useful, preventing ANY ability from being a real dump-stat.
Nod. Proficiency should just add to saves. You're better or worse at a given save based on the stat. Some classes might have an added bonus to a save or two (or 6) or not.

I mean, in the classic game your saves got better with level, period, all of them. How bad they were to start and how fast they got better depended on your class, but they all got better.

I don't care at all if Charisma is balanced with other ability scores. The abilities are not balanced, nothing short of revising the entire system will change that...
While you're not wrong, if we accept that the stats aren't balanced with eachother, all three typical character-generation methods - 4d6-drop-lowest-and-arrange, standard array, and point buy - are inherently broken.

(Ironically, the least broken, fairest, alternative would be random-roll-in-order.)


I see them as Eldritch Blasters!
What's an 'Eldritch Blaster?' Well, a 'blaster' is a weapon from Star Wars, a prop made from a firearm, typically a early-mid 20th-century firearm, like a Sterling sub-machine gun or a Mauser 'broomhandle,' dressed up with a few wires and other bits.
So, clearly, an eldritch blaster would be bascially the same thing, but dressed up with runes, glyphs, maybe some new-agey crystals...


I can already hear the crying and gnashing of the grognards .... that someone would say that basing your saving throws on your level is anathema to D&D?
:)
::gnash::gnash::
 
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I would personaly delete charisma as a stat and rearange other stats in 4 stats only:

Strength; melee and thrown attack and damage, bonus HPs(old con mechanics), carring capacity,
skills: athletics,
saves: fort saves(current str and con saves),

dexterity; ranged and finesse attack and damage, AC bonus, initiative bonus,
skills: acrobatics, stealth, thievery(sleight of hands, open lock, disable device).
saves: reflex saves(dex saves),

Cunning; finesse part of the mind. Merged some functions of inteligence, wisdom and charisma; extra skill proficiency per bonus, extra language per bonus, initiative bonus,
Skills: all current int,wis and cha based skills.
saves: none

Willpower; power and presence part of the mind. Spellcasting stat for all classes, calculated in "presence" part of charisma(inspire courage, paladins auras, frightfull presence etc...),
skills: none.
saves: will saves(current int,wis and cha saves).

This is pretty similar to what I've done for an SRD5 overhaul I'm working on. Still a lot to do before it's ready for proper playtesting, but it feels better than DnD's core 6 already.

---

Some thoughts @ the OP:

I'll echo a few people here in thinking Warlocks should be Intelligence based. Their fluff describes them as "thirsty for knowledge and power" but of the 5 warlocks I've DMd for, only one of them had an Intelligence score above 12. Not that I expect people to follow the fluff to the letter, but much of their description suggests their intellect plays an important role in their questing, while hardly mentioning force of will and personality. It's not as if they out-Charisma'd their patrons to gain their powers. They took a magical shortcut and submitted themselves to the patron's service, which seems more like a sign of a weak will.

That paladins should be Wisdom-based is understandable given the space they share with clerics, but I think Charisma works better in conjunction with their fluff.

I wonder if the way 5e leans on Charisma is a product of the developers trying to artificially reinforce the interaction pillar of the vaunted Three Pillars. Just conjecture, I didn't follow the development cycle at all. At least in theory, making Charisma the spellcasting stat for so many classes provides incentive for players interested in those classes to spend more time in the social aspect of the game by giving them 'free' bonuses.
 

I like the idea of Sorcerers as Con casters, and I already base initiative off of Intelligence. I think that arrangement goes a long way toward easing the "dump" stat plague.

I don't really get the OP's dislike of gnomes, though; in my opinion they make the best Paladins. I do wish they had a Charisma bonus, though. Then they'd be perfect.
 

I mean, I can see an argument for Constitution casting: The magic is literally something you pull out of your body to hurl at foes, and is great for Genasi and a hypothetical blood caster.

Charisma for a warlock I can sort of see as a way of representing your own ability to bargain with the dark powers you made a pact with: convincing or tricking them into granting you more power while trying not to gamble away your soul or sanity. After all, a warlock is a conduit, not a true caster; they might only be as powerful as their patron lets them be. This is kind of contradictory with the possibility the PHB mentions about certain Great Old Ones not even recognizing someone trying to draw their power, but I definitely find the patron aspect more interesting if the patron you draw from is active, rather than passive.

I would be good with a con caster, and warlock would make sense in a "it hurts you to use your powers" way: warlocks with good con can take more pain, and thus get more power.
 

I would be good with a con caster, and warlock would make sense in a "it hurts you to use your powers" way: warlocks with good con can take more pain, and thus get more power.

I could see it too. Maybe not with the warlock/patron relationship I usually want to encourage, but it'd make sense for the type of warlock you're talking about: one that draws power from its suffering. Such a class might actually stand to be its own class, rather than use the warlock chassis.
 

While you're not wrong, if we accept that the stats aren't balanced with eachother, all three typical character-generation methods - 4d6-drop-lowest-and-arrange, standard array, and point buy - are inherently broken.

(Ironically, the least broken, fairest, alternative would be random-roll-in-order.)
How so? Players are expected to 'optimize' after they pick a class by placing their higher ability scores in the abilities they actually need; this will still make a Sorcerer want a high Charisma even if the rules made the ability completely useless except for being the Sorc's casting ability. I.e. abilities never were meant to be equally useful for all characters and this does not 'break' the game in any way.

What's an 'Eldritch Blaster?' Well, a 'blaster' is a weapon from Star Wars, a prop made from a firearm, typically a early-mid 20th-century firearm, like a Sterling sub-machine gun or a Mauser 'broomhandle,' dressed up with a few wires and other bits.
An unelegant weapon for a less civilised age.
 
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What i thinki is a bit over the top is that Charisma is the save stat for charm spells. I mean that should so be wisdom or maybe intelligence. They overdid it a bit with giving every stat a meaning.

Imho Constitution should be the prime ability for barbarians, maybe moon druids and maybe dwarven warriors.

Cha for the bard ok, althought thsi could be int but he is the one who mostly justifies being cha.

For the warlock? Nope. That shoud be int or wis.

For the Pally? Cha is it and that is ok.

For the sorc ok, especially if you do F.S. as sorc types. If the lock keeps cha then the sorc eventually shoudl get int.
 

What i thinki is a bit over the top is that Charisma is the save stat for charm spells. I mean that should so be wisdom or maybe intelligence. They overdid it a bit with giving every stat a meaning.

I don’t think I can disagree more strenuously. One weakness in 5e’s implementation is too many spells still target the big 3 stats of Con, Wis, and Dex. Moving charm to Charisma was a great idea if you wanted to add balance among saves.
 

My modest proposal-
Bards keep charisma.
Either Warlocks or Sorcerers (but not both) have charisma to key off on.
Paladins get killed ... erm ... move to wisdom.

What do you think? Also! A poll. To see if you agree with me, or are in the thrall of Big Charisma.

Counter proposal, drop stats and make it all class abilities with a Quick system rider.

Although that may be too much sacred steak.


Sent from my Nexus 7 using EN World mobile app
 

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