D&D 5E Charisma- Good ability ... or OMNIVOROUS DESTROYER OF D&D?

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Ratskinner]

While you're not wrong, if we accept that the stats aren't balanced with eachother, all three typical character-generation methods - 4d6-drop-lowest-and-arrange, standard array, and point buy - are inherently broken.

(Ironically, the least broken, fairest, alternative would be random-roll-in-order.)


:

Take 18 cards from a standard deck, the 2,3,4,5,6 from three suits and the 3,4,5 from the last. Shuffle. Deal out three for each attribute, in order. If you're feeling generous, swap two cards' positions.

I'm using it right now and it works wonders for balance amongst party members. If you want higher stats replace some lower value cards with high value cards.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using EN World mobile app

 

[R. Brent Clements]

I see the primary spellcasting classes as follows. Warlock is the one that relies on an external intelligent entity for its source of power, so Charisma makes sense. Sorcerers draw from within themselves or from the world around them, so Con makes sense. Wizards of course figured it out through sheer intelligence. Thus in a game where stats are not arranged after rolling, there are 3 options available to you to make a non-useless spellcaster.

The bard is of course a reasonable choice for charisma, and as far as I can see all the other casters depend on knowing how to please a diety, and as such wisdom is the direction it goes

 

[MechaTarrasque]

You just put put into words something I've been thinking about, but hadn't properly framed. I joke about the eldritch blast-y thing, but that's really it.

What the heck does strong force of personality/will have to do with submitting yourself in a pact to a being for more power? If anything, there should be a negative correlation (or none). And, as you note, while I think some of the fluff if specific to Cthulhu, um, GOO, in terms of knowledge, it still makes more sense to have it keyed to intelligence.

I think the idea is that force of will is what lets you keep your mind after contact with the patron--most people who encounter a GOO or a demon lord become lunatics (or enthralled slaves to the fey), but the warlock has enough force of will to keep his/her sanity. It wouldn't shock me if any GOO's or archfey that get stats have something similar to madness tables.

 

[TwoSix]

I think the idea is that force of will is what lets you keep your mind after contact with the patron--most people who encounter a GOO or a demon lord become lunatics (or enthralled slaves to the fey), but the warlock has enough force of will to keep his/her sanity. It wouldn't shock me if any GOO's or archfey that get stats have something similar to madness tables.

Exactly what I was going to post, beat me to it.

It's not like ANY stat score can't work for pretty much any magic-using class, they simply support different rationales and different narratives.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Nevvur]

I think the idea is that force of will is what lets you keep your mind after contact with the patron--most people who encounter a GOO or a demon lord become lunatics (or enthralled slaves to the fey), but the warlock has enough force of will to keep his/her sanity. It wouldn't shock me if any GOO's or archfey that get stats have something similar to madness tables.

Yeah, I was tempted to remark on this as a valid counterpoint to my own thoughts on the warlock, but again, there's nothing in the class description that suggests insanity/enthrallment ever happens with them. The only established cost is that most warlocks perform favors for the patron. Which is fine. Gives players and DMs a lot of latitude in fleshing out the details as suits their story. If such consequences as you describe exist for NPC warlocks in one's game, then PC warlocks can be the special snowflakes who routinely overcome or avoid them. They have that little something extra that enables them to be functional adventurers. Roughly speaking, warlocks are to cultists what clerics are to priests.

IMO, that something extra should be identified as their ingenuity and ability to make better sense of esoteric knowledge rather than their willfulness, which doesn't get mentioned even once in their class description. Their spellcasting ability score is literally the only thing that suggests willpower plays a role in their adventuring careers, whereas there are several references to the intellectual functions of the class. See below.

[sblock]"Warlocks are seekers of the knowledge that lies hidden in the fabric of the multiverse."
"Drawing on the ancient knowledge of [otherworldly] beings... warlocks piece together arcane secrets..."
"More often, the arrangement [between warlock and patron] is similar to that between a master and apprentice." (suggesting some level of learning/instruction)
"Warlocks are driven by an insatiable need for knowledge and power..." [/sblock]

 

[TwoSix]

Well, I see that; the trouble with that concept is that it is incredibly specific. It effectively rules out the vast majority of ideas I would have for a Warlock.

As I have written repeatedly, there is something that feels off with having Warlocks often become the "face" of a party simply because of this (Sorcerers as well, to a lesser extent).

The vast majority of ideas I have for awesome warlocks are not those I associate with high charisma. Is it possible? Sure. Anything is possible. But it's not something I want ... NECESSARILY CORRELATED to being a Warlock.


(Moreover, while I happen to disagree with the premise, it become exceptionally ridiculous when you expand the list of Patrons, IMO. Again, servant of X does not always equate with strong force of will. Or often.)

Makes sense to me. My personal opinion is that Warlocks would work best with Intelligence, but I'm fine with whatever.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Yeah, I was tempted to remark on this as a valid counterpoint to my own thoughts on the warlock, but again, there's nothing in the class description that suggests insanity/enthrallment ever happens with them. The only established cost is that most warlocks perform favors for the patron. Which is fine. Gives players and DMs a lot of latitude in fleshing out the details as suits their story. If such consequences as you describe exist for NPC warlocks in one's game, then PC warlocks can be the special snowflakes who routinely overcome or avoid them. They have that little something extra that enables them to be functional adventurers. Roughly speaking, warlocks are to cultists what clerics are to priests.

IMO, that something extra should be identified as their ingenuity and ability to make better sense of esoteric knowledge rather than their willfulness, which doesn't get mentioned even once in their class description. Their spellcasting ability score is literally the only thing that suggests willpower plays a role in their adventuring careers, whereas there are several references to the intellectual functions of the class. See below.

[sblock]"Warlocks are seekers of the knowledge that lies hidden in the fabric of the multiverse."
"Drawing on the ancient knowledge of [otherworldly] beings... warlocks piece together arcane secrets..."
"More often, the arrangement [between warlock and patron] is similar to that between a master and apprentice." (suggesting some level of learning/instruction)
"Warlocks are driven by an insatiable need for knowledge and power..." [/sblock]

The PHB doesn't talk a lot about people who try and fail to get a class level, but that doesn't mean I don't believe that it is impossible for Doug the Dirt Farmer to poke his eye out the first time he tries to use a sword. My understanding wasn't that warlocks go crazy, but that people who try to be warlocks and fail go crazy from exposure to the patrons.

For myself I don't care what stat the warlock uses, unless the patron has to show up every time the warlock levels up (or they get inflicted with aasimar-like dreams). I figure it is easier to fill the "smart guy who negotiates complicated deals with questionable entities" niche with a new wizard subclass than to change the warlock before 5.5 or 6e. If they were willing to borrow from the sorcerer for the lore wizard, and the cleric for the theurge, can the warlock be far behind?

 

[Salamandyr]

In 1e, Charisma was the God stat. Who cares that Strength let you add 3 to your damage, when charisma let you go into a dungeon with 8 other dudes who would die for you!