D&D 5E Which parts of D&D came from Tolkien?

[Guest 6801328]

Sorry, but you're just plain wrong. By your logic, we can't have a vampire book/movie without it being pulled from Anne Rice. And obviously that's not the case. The rest of your post is just pure speculation. Not really accurate either. Between the two:

1. Tolkien created the idea of giant eagles
2. Giant eagles already existed in Arabian myth and Tolkien used them to put into his own stories

It's clear that #2 is the accurate option.

And if you can't have a conversation without insulting me, then that speaks volumes of you, not me.

For the most part I find your posts interesting and insightful, but I think you are totally missing the point of what he was saying. Maybe intentionally so because you're annoyed by his pedantry, but if you can overlook that I think he is making an excellent point.

So, no, you can't conclude that all vampire stories come from Anne Rice. According to him you would have to look carefully to see how much a given vampire resembled an Anne Rice vampire, versus all the vampires to come before. This approach doesn't prove anything, of course...it's possible that an author didn't actually read Anne Rice before dreaming up a feature that was previously unique to Anne Rice, but it's usually a pretty good indicator.

I'm certainly no expert on arabian/mediterranean folklore, but I too thought of Rocs as violent predators with animal intelligence. Given that, I would be willing to credit Tolkien as a primary inspiration for benevolent, speaking giant birds.

EDIT: Looks like I forgot to reload the page before posting because several posters have already said essentially just this.

 

[Celebrim]

It conflated biology and "textual criticism," and was dismissive in that it set the terms of the conversation such that a person could not discuss whether something was, or wasn't, influenced by Tolkien, but only the degree (like magic swords) because Tolkien came first.

How many sentences do you think I can quote from my posts in this thread that directly contradict that claim?

Which is akin to my saying that all of D&D is based off of C.S. Lewis, because it's fantasy, and it came first, and you can't disagree with that ... just argue about the amount of influence.

No where did I make any argument that parallels that claim.

 

[lowkey13]

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[lowkey13]

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[Shadowdweller00]

Let's seeee....hmmm...

Elves - I believe the shining blond-haired with violet eyes "Fairies", as Gygax first refers to them in the MM, is based from Galadriel, and Elrond references them -at least in the films as far as I recall though don't remember if it's in the books- as his "kin").

Almost certainly not, considering that descriptions of elven or elfin beauty most definitely predate Tolkien; not to mention that Galadriel is never described as having violet eyes.

Orcs -as the original green pig-faced orcs are taken directly from the images of the Brothers Hildbrandt and those are directly from Tolkien.

The green skin / pig-face / tusks image of orcs is distinctly non-Tolkien. Tolkien consistently describes his orcs as slant-eyed, flat-nosed, dark-skinned, and frequently stooped.

Giant Spiders.

Not remotely - present in mythology, assorted pulp fiction in decades preceding Tolkien, and occasionally Cthulhu mythos. One example. Another.

Giant/intelligent/speaking Eagles.

Giant and occasionally intelligent birds or bird-like creatures have a widespread mythological basis. In addition to the Roc, there's the Simurg, Aquila - Zeus' servitor (which specifically is an eagle), Odin's ravens, amongst many others. Almost certainly present in lost-world pulp serials as well.

Giant/Evil/intelligent Wolves a.k.a. Worgs or Wargs.

Ever hear of Fenrir? Wargs are taken directly from norse mythology.

Wraiths - totally forgot the Wraiths.

Laughable if you know anything about mythology and folklore.

Wights - arguable, but inclusion of the Barrow Wight, like the Ringwraiths, even if wights & wraiths themselves have other folklore and myth behind them, Tolkien's Wight being found in a barrow (burial mound/chambers) and having a corporeal nature (unlike the wraiths) is his own.

This one probably is Tolkien, although the word is not. The life-draining is pure D&D, however.

Items & Places:
Ring of Invisibility

Wrong. Plenty of mythological basis. Here's one example.

Crystal Balls w/Hypnosis

Nope. Long-term presence of crystal balls in folklore; and they made their way into Victorian spiritualism.

Elvin Cloaks/Boots

I don't explicitly have a reference, but I doubt it. Pre-Tolkien elves were frequently associated with magical items in fairy tales and other stories. And magical cloaks or boots are hardly uncommon.

Weapons that do more damage/special powers against specific foes: While magic swords in fantasy myth and literature are hardly unique to Tolkien, the idea of Sting, Orcrist, Glamdring, -as magic swords that were made to kill goblins & orcs and, so, by extension the swords with extra damage vs. lycanthropes or magic-users, etc... is specifically Tolkien.

Doubtful considering how widespread magic weapons were in mythology and pulp sword-and-sorcery tales. The concept of supernatural creatures that can only be defeated by or are vulnerable to special weapons predates Tolkien by many centuries.

Arguably various wizard/mage staffs.

Dates back at least to the Egyptians.

Wizard Towers- While not a definite, I may be stretching, but the concept of Wizards in/building/using Towers as their strongholds (in Basic/BECM) from Orthanc.

Nope

The very concept of the Dungeon Crawl & Wilderness Adventure are straight out of The Hobbit and LotR

I'm going to guess you haven't read much (or any) Conan?

Nothing personal, guy. These misconceptions and delusions are pretty widespread.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Wait...we are talking about Rocs and Giant Eagles?

They both have entries in the 1e Monster Manual. Rocs are nasty and have animal intelligence. Giant Eagles are neutral alignment but tend to leave Good-aligned creatures alone, are especially friendly with Dwarves and Elves, and can speak.

So, yeah, not sure I can see both of them being derived from Arabian folklore and having nothing to do with Tolkien whatsoever....

 

[Guest 6801328]

Almost certainly not, considering that descriptions of elven or elfin beauty most definitely predate Tolkien; not to mention that Galadriel is never described as having violet eyes.

...blah...blah...blah...

Dates back at least to the Egyptians.

Nope

Oh, yes, and then the obligatory snark:

I'm going to guess you haven't read much (or any) Conan?

Nothing personal, guy. These misconceptions and delusions are pretty widespread.

Once again you are trying to argue that Tolkien didn't invent any of these things from out of the clear blue sky, but nobody is claiming he did. So I'm not sure who you are arguing with.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Oh, yes, and then the obligatory snark:

Wasn't intended as snark. That statement was directed at the specific quote referenced. Conan does quite a lot of dungeon-delving; as well as the occasional wilderness crawl (the latter being also VERY common amongst pulp serials).

Once again you are trying to argue that Tolkien didn't invent any of these things from out of the clear blue sky, but nobody is claiming he did. So I'm not sure who you are arguing with.

And you're still missing the fact that Tolkien didn't even popularize most of those things. You just don't understand or realize it because the popular context of myth and fantasy literature has faded into obscurity to present generations. (Not infrequently with good reason, since a goodly volume of the source material was crap).

 

[Lanefan]

Wasn't intended as snark. That statement was directed at the specific quote referenced. Conan does quite a lot of dungeon-delving; as well as the occasional wilderness crawl (the latter being also VERY common amongst pulp serials).

By himself, or with a party of vaguely-equals?

That's a key difference. Tolkein's adventuring and dungeon-delving stories are party-based. Conan - while perhaps being a party all unto himself - is just one guy.

D&D is party-based - with rare exceptions.

 

[Celebrim]

Battle of Pellenor Fields- rules adapted for Chainmail. It's why we have Lightning Bolt and Fireball.

But it's also cherrypicking.

For someone who doesn't want to discuss anything, you sure have a lot of questions. And although you claim I've used up my allotment of noting that the goal posts have moved, please note that the title of the thread was, "Which parts of D&D came from Tolkien?", and I have only ever tried to list the answer to that question. I have never tried to prove that all of D&D came from Tolkien, and denied that all of D&D came from Tolkien repeatedly in this thread.

Where do we get the concept of the dungeon? Where do we get the illusionist? The cleric? The fighter? The spell system? The regenerating troll? The skills for a thief and other class abilties? The monk? Psionics? The Paladin? Spell components? The planes? Changing spells (cure/cause)? The assassin? Almost every single magic item? Almost every monster? The entirety of Deities and Demigods? I could go on and on, but you get the idea.

Indeed I do. I could go on at length about each of those ideas. For example, "the dungeon" as it came to exist in D&D, has so many potential sources that we could not cite any one with any confidence. But I think it's fair to say that there are enough attributes of "the dungeon" that are not found in Tolkien to suggest that dungeons are not directly lifted from Tolkien, even if they fit comfortably in Tolkien. For one thing, we might expect that we'd generically call all underground realms, "the underground" or the "mines" or some such, rather than "the dungeon" - a term barely appearing in Tolkien (for example, "the dungeons of Dol Goldur"). But we know we call them all the "the dungeon" because the prototype was literally the "donjon" of a ruined castle.

I very much get the feeling that you are having a conversation that I'm not having. At no point have I ever claimed D&D was "all" anything. I only claimed that many of the most salient elements - the PC races for example - were clearly Tolkien in origin.