D&D 5E My 20th Level Rogue wants to use Stroke of Luck to tame a demonically possessed red dragon...

[Nevvur]

Maybe, though tame isn't the word I would use. Again, we're not talking about an animal here. Animals are tamed, intelligent creatures are enslaved. I would definitely look for the thinnest possible excuse to twist the wording of the wish against the caster.

Regardless, there are limits to the Wish spell, and you get to set them. Does it make sense for Wish to be able to enslave a mortal? For sure, you can pretty much do that with 5th level magic anyway. How about a god? Probably not! So where does an ancient red dragon possessed by gra'zt, two of the most powerful beings the party could ever hope to confront, fit into this scale? Rather closer to the god end, I suspect.

Personally, I wouldn't give them the chance. I would tell the wizard's player he realizes even a wish isn't powerful enough to enslave an ancient dragon, because Magicky Wagicky stuff. That way you're preserving your set piece and not allowing the players to punish themselves by wasting valuable resources (9th level slot) at the start of an inevitable combat. And to be clear, I think it should be inevitable. As the BBEG, I assume a significant portion of the party's adventuring career has been spent dealing with him or his machinations in one capacity or another. It would feel unsatisfying to me as a storyteller, and possibly to everyone who isn't the I WIN buton guy, to see the story conclude without a suitably dangerous fight.

Their approach may be indicative of thoughts unspoken, though. It's possible they feel unprepared and are simply afraid to die. Hopefully that's not the case with a bunch of level 20's, but ya never know. Alternately, they could be trying to avoid slaying the dragon to prolong the story. It might be worth your time to discuss with your players any possible plans you have for later on.

 

[ccs]

Fair enough.

Would you then, allow, say the 20th level wizard in the party to cast Wish to tame the ferocious demon possessed red dragon? Cause i suspect that's what they plan on doing if i rule against the rogue.

Absolutely. Wishes can (potentially) do anything.

 

[Fanaelialae]

If you have some sort of house rule that a natural 20 gives amazing results, then that's entirely on you, and we can't help you with that. A natural 20 is only a critical success on an attack roll. It doesn't even let you automatically pass a saving throw, these days.

There has never been any edition of D&D where rolling a 20 on a skill check was anything more than one point above rolling a 19.

Also, be sure to tell the player of this at the beginning of the session. Nothing ruins a dramatic, high-stakes moment any worse than miscommunication.

Even if the DM were to allow an exceptional success on a natural 20, using Stroke of Luck just results in a 20, which is not the same as a natural 20. A natural 20 is ALWAYS rolled.

That said, this is the sort of thing that I probably wouldn't allow even on a natural 20. Some things are outright impossible (I don't care how many natural 20s you roll, you can't jump from the earth to the moon).

Of course, if the players beat it down first and cast out the demononic presence, then I might allow Stroke of Luck to work based on the rule of cool. If it's the end of the campaign, and the player isn't using it to circumvent the boss fight, then why not? I might simply explain to the player that while he can attempt it, there is no chance of success until the dragon is sufficiently weakened.

 

[Saeviomagy]

1. The DC for a 'nearly impossible' task is 30. In theory, your party rogue might have enough in whatever skill you deem necessary to pacify a dragon to hit that number. However you've indicated that Graz'zt cannot be dealt with. This escalates the DC to impossible, meaning there is no roll: any attempt simply fails.

2. Wish can potentially:
a) Duplicate hallow, making a zone in which creatures cannot be possessed by demons, and are freed of possession by demons. The hallow is susceptible to things like dispel magic, and Graz'zt can probably do something to overcome it within a short period of time.
b) Grant the dragon (and any other 9 creatures of choice) immunity to whatever Graz'zt is doing to possess it for 8 hours. I would play this as harder for Graz'zt to overcome: it's higher level magic and more focussed. I'd let it last the whole 8 hours. However - this will result in wish burnout, making the mage much, much weaker, and potentially removing his ability to cast wish.
c) Grant the dragon permanent immunity to Graz'zt's possession. This will come at some considerable cost to him IN ADDITION to wish burnout. I would start with something along the lines of transferring the possession to himself.


Were I the players and with the assumption that the possession is not wanted by the dragon I would cast wish to duplicate hallow (to avoid burnout), then try to convince the dragon to give us some help in exchange for a promise to bring him back from the dead after the battle, or to exact revenge on Graz'zt, or to carry out some last wish. If nothing else, he could sit still and let us coup-de-grace him a few times to bring down his hitpoints.

As a DM, I'd let that work, and (depending on rolls) negotiate something that is slightly better than a direct hit meteor swarm in terms of damage. After that, Graz'zt regains control and the fight is on.

The same sort of thing applies to the other usages of wish - each one is going to help out in the final battle, but none of them are going to negate it.

 

[Leatherhead]

Wouldn't religion be a more appropriate skill for an exorcism?

 

[SkidAce]

Have one of the methods listed above cast Graz'zt out of the dragon. Right next to it (an avatar or something).

Now you have a fight that the dragon can join in on, making it a "little" easier for the group to succeed as a reward for their ingenuity.

 

[SkidAce]

If they win, Graz'zt is banned or barred from affecting their world/plane for XX years, SUCCESS!

 

[Ancalagon]

All deals with Graz'zt have turned sour over the course of the game. This is the final session, and there is no more working with Graz'zt.

It's do or die!

Further argument why the DC should be ridiculously high

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Would you then, allow, say the 20th level wizard in the party to cast Wish to tame the ferocious demon possessed red dragon? Cause i suspect that's what they plan on doing if i rule against the rogue.

I would tell them that they're free to try, but it counts as a greater use of the spell (with accompanying risk of burnout), and the dragon is still entitled to a saving throw to negate the effect entirely. You may or may not also want to mention that it has legendary saves (if it does).

 

[steeldragons]

The dragon is an intelligent sentient creature. It isn't something that can be "tamed." On top of that, a demon is wholey evil and intelligent sentient (insofar as it can be free-willed within its "natural state" of being chaotic evil). Again, not something -by its very nature- that can be "tamed." And, being as the dragon is possessed, it is the DEMON with which you must deal. I don't see "taming" as a viable option here.

Your 20th level thief might be able to use their Stroke of Luck, and it would be an absolutely amazing nearly impossible feat, to persuade or trick the creature into doing what they want, ONCE, maybe...take a single action in a single round that is at the Rogue's behest/command. But it's not going to get any further than that and then the demonically possessed ancient dragon is going to be piii-erum really furious at/with the rogue.

Other than that, this is a total non-started.