D&D 5E What if you had to learn to use weapons?

[ro]

This is a bit more generous than I'd use, but OK...

This is actually how it works, RAW, according to the DMG. Most people just don't realize it.

But this is a complete non-starter. In effect, what this means is that once a character has one magic weapon it has a bunch of them...just pick the one you need for the situation at hand. Bleah!

Why does it have "a bunch of them"? The magical properties are exchanged with another similar magic item. If you have a +1 bow and a Sunsword, you don't get a +1 Sunsword but a Sunbow and a +1 sword. If you want both properties, you still have to carry around both items. This just makes magic items less DM-dependent. If you find a magic sword, but you use axes, you can switch it out, making your axe magical and the sword normal. There is no power difference, just item choice.

Though the opportunities for thievery become brilliant! I'm a thief, I know (or suspect) you've got a +2 sword, and by the time you wake up in the morning I've got a +2 rapier and you've got a hunk of sharp metal. I then sell said +2 rapier and buy a mundane one, pocket the difference, and call it a night's good work. Lather, rinse, repeat until before long I'm stinkin' rich!

Yeah, that's not the intent. I'll try to change the wording to clarify that.

"You may exchange magical or non-magical properties between two similar items you are attuned to by touching one to the other for the duration of a short rest. If an item doesn't normally require attunement, you may attune to it without using an attunement slot. For example, a +2 sword touched to a mundane bow would result in a mundane sword and a +2 bow."

Yeah, that's where this idea falls apart. What would be better is forcing some sort of choice at any level - OK, at 1st level I can use greatsword but gawds help me in tight quarters, or I can use dagger which is great for close-in work but kinda hopeless in the open field, or I can use a mace instead and bludgeon them instead of slicing them, or ...

Then at higher levels you can slowly fill in the gaps so by, say, 10th level you're up to 6 or 8 proficiencies and by 20th level you can pretty much use most normal weapons and maybe even a few exotics.

Creating other consequences to weapon choice would be interesting. That is my intent with this whole idea: to make weapon choice matter.

 

[ro]

The only thing this change would achieve is that occasionally a found magic weapon would be thrown on the garbage pile because nobody knows how to use it. I can't see any case where it would actually increase fun in a game, unless the players are the kind of people who get enjoyment from tracking minutiae.

Except not, because the change allows you to make use of magic weapons even when they aren't your normal fare.

 

[ro]

they essentially have to become half-gods (level ~15LvL) to use a weapon like a two hander? Are these weapons then even used in the hands of common soldiers? Is every NPC running around with a dagger? Because if a random soldier can wield a greataxe that leaves an EXTREMLY bad taste for any fighter while the opposite, every soldier using a dagger because they have no class levels, is SUPER weird too.

This is a really good point. I'm trying to make weapons more interesting and weapon choice more consequential. What other ways might this be done?

 

[Lanefan]

This is actually how it works, RAW, according to the DMG. Most people just don't realize it.

My comment still stands.

Why does it have "a bunch of them"? The magical properties are exchanged with another similar magic item. If you have a +1 bow and a Sunsword, you don't get a +1 Sunsword but a Sunbow and a +1 sword. If you want both properties, you still have to carry around both items. This just makes magic items less DM-dependent. If you find a magic sword, but you use axes, you can switch it out, making your axe magical and the sword normal. There is no power difference, just item choice.

Exactly. It allows you to choose a suitable magic weapon for the job at hand at the time without having to find/buy/steal and then carry around one of each...which IMO is a bit too powerful.

So we need a magic bow today for some long-range shootin'? Here, let me just transfer this +2 out of my trusty ol' sword here... What's that, you say? Scouts say tomorrow we're fightin' a bunch of things that bladed weapons don't hurt much? Guess I'll be disenchantin' the bow tonight to load up the ol' morning star after we've done our day's shootin'..."

Bleah.

Yeah, that's not the intent. I'll try to change the wording to clarify that.

Why? It's the only good part!

"You may exchange magical or non-magical properties between two similar items you are attuned to by touching one to the other for the duration of a short rest. If an item doesn't normally require attunement, you may attune to it without using an attunement slot. For example, a +2 sword touched to a mundane bow would result in a mundane sword and a +2 bow."

Is it even possible to attune to a mundane item?

Creating other consequences to weapon choice would be interesting. That is my intent with this whole idea: to make weapon choice matter.

Your transference-of-enchantment idea goes against this in that it largely makes weapon choice irrelevant - doesn't matter what you find, doesn't matter what you have, you'll end up with the magic (or the best magic, if there's a choice) in the weapon you want.

A consequence of weapon choice is that you may or may not be lucky enough to find a magic version of the weapon(s) you chose. Them's the breaks...

 

[5ekyu]

Here is one way to handle changing proficiencies. What are your suggestions?

Weapon Proficiency

In the Player's Handbook, you gain all of your weapon proficiencies
and make one full-adventure weapon choice at level 1. This update
replaces weapon proficiencies to make things more interesting.

Damage Group

Find your Damage Group in the list below, based on your weapon proficiencies.

Martial. For proficiency with all martial weapons.

-- Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger.

Simple+. For proficiency with all or most simple weapons and a few martial weapons.

-- Bard, Druid, Rogue.

Simple. For proficiency with all simple weapons.

-- Cleric, Monk, Warlock.

Minimal. For proficiency with only a few simple weapons.

-- Sorcerer, Wizard.

Damage Group Level. Your Damage Group Level equals
your combined level for all classes in that damage group and higher. If
your class choices give proficiency in a different group than normal,
that class's levels count toward that group instead.

Race Weapon Proficiencies. If your race gives you
weapon proficiencies, your classes are in that damage group (usually
Simple+) if they would otherwise be lower.

Weapon Type

At 1st level, you gain proficiency with ammunition weapons or either
bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing non-ammunition weapons. You gain an
additional weapon type proficiency whenever your damage die increases
through your damage group. You only gain this benefit if you have not
gained it from the same level or lower in another damage group.

Damage Dice

Subject to your Weapon Type proficiencies and your Damage Group
Level, you are proficient with weapons that use the damage dice shown in
the Weapon Damage table. Once per round when you hit with an attack using one of these weapons, you may add your proficiency bonus to the damage rolled.

You can fight with two 1dX weapons only if you are proficient with 2dX weapons.

Weapon Damage by Damage Group Level

[TABLE="width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Martial
[/TD]
[TD]Simple+
[/TD]
[TD]Simple
[/TD]
[TD]Minimal
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1st: d4/d6
[/TD]
[TD]1st: d4
[/TD]
[TD]1st: d4
[/TD]
[TD]1st: d4
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4th: d8/2d4
[/TD]
[TD]4th: d6
[/TD]
[TD]5th: d6
[/TD]
[TD]7th: d6
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9th: d10
[/TD]
[TD]9th: d8/2d4
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14th: d12/2d6
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Magic Items, Weapons, and Armor


Magical items can change shape and size to fit any character and can
also trade their magical properties with similar items. During a short
rest, you may exchange magical or non-magical properties between two
items by touching one to the other. For example, a +2 sword touched to a
mundane bow would result in a mundane sword and a +2 bow.


Edit: Added proficiency bonus to damage once per round. Without proficiency, the attacks are weaker than under the PHB as is. Adding proficiency once per round brings it closer to the original power level, and ends up boosting higher levels.

For Fighter class:
Level: New Version vs. PHB = change in damage1st: 1d6 v. 1d12 = 3.5 - 6.5 = -3
4th: 1d8 v. 1d12 = 4.5 - 6.5 = -2
5th: 2d8 v. 2d12 = 9 - 13 = -4
9th: 2d10 v. 2d12 = 11 - 13 = -2
11th: 3d10 v. 3d12 = 16.5 - 19.5 = -3
13th: 3d10 v. 3d12 = 16.5 - 19.5 = -3
14th: 3d12 v. 3d12 = 19.5 - 19.5 = 0

Level: Change in Damage w/o vs. w/ Proficiency
1st: -3 v. -1
4th: -2 v. 0
5th: -4 v. -1
9th: -2 v. +2
11th: -3 v. +1
13th: -3 v. +1
14th: 0 v. +5
17th: 0 v. +6

Edit: Added Magic Items, Weapons, and Armor.

Ok so a few comments...

1- First issue is what is the goal of this setup as opposed to the usual? What are you trying to make happen for your setting.

Example: Wanting a game where the "danger" is in the character and the "weapon" is as much a cosmetic thing as the choice of appearance. this is a very cinematic approach where the difference in weapons is more flavor and 007 is deadlier with his PPK than mooks with assault rifles. Nothing wrong with this kind of approach and it is achievable much simpler by assigning "damage dice" for weapon attacks by class and level and having very little in the way of rules about weapons themselves.

2 - The magic swapperooo thingy - again this could be a telling piece of setting definition. **if** i wanted it as a part of my setting, it would not be a quick nap but an aspect of a major ritual, likely linked to certain class features or arcane or divine situations. maybe you could take the glorious Axe of Zimmdar to a Zimmdar shrine and pray for its +3d6 flame burst to turn into a lesser restore because you know he is also a god of purifying flame as well as a god of flames of righteous vengence.

HOWEVER, this divorces to a large extent the notion of "materials tied to the effects" for magic item properties. it seems to shift that more to having the magical effect be a skin or an enchantment and less an intrinsic outcome of the whole item. That would be a bit of flavor lost that i like. that would be a bit of added "generic" i don't like.

So, that would not be something i would do, unless it was to make that very case clear.

maybe "magic items" are specifically "bound items" where spirits are trapped into these prisons and locked to feed the properties and so your slow rub short rest for the items to swap is really just a form of "prisoner exchange."

There is nothing at all wrong with that as a setting element, frankly it is a very core setting defining element and one that can indeed serve a whole lot of good platterfulls of stories up at the buffet - though again, i would have it be more elaborate and ritual driven and frankly, have a chance of escape be a thing to be concerned with.

 

[steeldragons]

What if, rather than becoming proficient in a whole list of weapons at level 1, you gained proficiency in one or two weapons at certain levels as you leveled up?

Then you would be playing in my homebrew setting & system...which would be AWESOME!

Each class (or, really, category of classes with a few special cases) you get a set number of weapons with which you are proficient at the start of the game and you learn additional ones as you level.

• "Warrior" classes begin with 4 proficiencies which they can choose from any and all weaponry. They may become proficient (i.e., learn to use without penalty) with a new weapon each level.
• "Rogue" classes begin with 3 proficiencies which may be chosen from a set list of 14 weapons (which I believe includes just about everything except heavy/two-handed weapons). They may become proficient (learn a new one) with an additional 1 weapon every other level (3rd, 5th, 7th, etc...).
• "Priest" classes begin with 2 proficiencies chosen from a limited list of 8 weapons (no bladed or piercing) with the except of the morningstar (which can do some piercing damage), and the "Templar" class which is permitted to use "sacred weaponry" of their order (which may include blades and bows). Their sacred weapon proficiency is a feature added to their normal weapon proficiencies so, as the more militarized/martial variant of a priest/cleric class, Templars begin play with 3 weapon proficiencies instead of the two clerics or druids get. They may learn additional weapons 1 every third level (3rd, 6th, 9th, etc...)
• "Wizard" classes -I bet you can guess- begin with 1 proficiency from a very limited list: club/cudgel, dagger/knife, staff, thrown darts/blades. They may learn a new weapon every 4 levels (4th, 8th, 12th, etc...)

A PC uninterested in learning a new weapon proficiency are able to use that "point" to apply to a non-weapon proficiency (a skill). Conversely, someone interested in bulking up their weapons choices/options may use a Skill Point (gained at various levels depending on class) to gain a "Proficiency" skill in a particular type of weapon or armor/shield. So, your Gandalfian wizard can have (and effectively use) his longsword.

Works great. Really not difficult to remember. Allows for a good amount of diversifying while keeping the various kinds of characters in the various kinds of classes feeling distinct.

 

[ro]

Is it even possible to attune to a mundane item?

Not normally.

Your transference-of-enchantment idea goes against this in that it largely makes weapon choice irrelevant - doesn't matter what you find, doesn't matter what you have, you'll end up with the magic (or the best magic, if there's a choice) in the weapon you want.

A consequence of weapon choice is that you may or may not be lucky enough to find a magic version of the weapon(s) you chose. Them's the breaks...

That's true, but by and large this results in all players having the most common items. How many DMs regularly add magic tridents to the game? Everybody adds the popular things: rapiers, longswords, longbows. And this would be even more an issue in pre-gen adventures.

My change intends to get around this problem. Now, if magic items were varied, and you did expect to find lal kidns of random things throughout the game that may or may not be useful, this whole thought would be moot.

As it stands, the purpose of this suggestion is to allow players to adopt stock magical items to their character concepts.

Exactly. It allows you to choose a suitable magic weapon for the job at hand at the time without having to find/buy/steal and then carry around one of each...which IMO is a bit too powerful.

So we need a magic bow today for some long-range shootin'? Here, let me just transfer this +2 out of my trusty ol' sword here... What's that, you say? Scouts say tomorrow we're fightin' a bunch of things that bladed weapons don't hurt much? Guess I'll be disenchantin' the bow tonight to load up the ol' morning star after we've done our day's shootin'..."

This, of course, is not the intent, and I am glad you are pointing it out. Here is another rewrite of the ability. Does it solve this issue?

Magic Items, Weapons, and Armor

Magical items can change shape and size to fit any character and can also trade their magical properties with similar items.

Once when you acquire a magical item, you may choose to exchange its magical properties with another item, including a non-magical item, you already possess. You may do this by attuning to both this new item and your existing item, following the normal rules for attunement. If an item does not normally require attunement, you may and must still do so for this exchange, but without using an attunement slot.

After attuning to both items, you may spend one hour touching one item to the other. At the end of this uninterrupted hour, the magical properties (or lack thereof) of the two objects are magically swapped.

As an example, if you find a Sun Blade and you already have a +1 longbow, their properties would swap so that the Sun Blade becomes a +1 longsword and your +1 longbow becomes a Sun Bow.

Similarly, if you find a +2 longbow and you already have an ordinary dagger, their properties would swap so that the +2 longbow becomes an ordinary longbow and your ordinary dagger becomes a +2 dagger.

With your DM's permission, you may spend four uninterrupted hours touching one item to the other and transfer all of the properties from one to the other, making the first an ordinary, non-magical item and the second a magical item with the combined magical properties of the two items.​

 

[Saeviomagy]

The effect would be that people couldn't use some magic weapons straight away. Since most people serious about weapons are funneled into choosing a specific style and sticking with it via feats and specialization, most magic weapons that aren't already targeted at a particular character go to waste anyway.

So no, no change to the game, but more complexity to track.

 

[Lanefan]

This, of course, is not the intent, and I am glad you are pointing it out. Here is another rewrite of the ability. Does it solve this issue?

It's better, but see below...

Magic Items, Weapons, and Armor

Magical items can change shape and size to fit any character and can also trade their magical properties with similar items.

Once when you acquire a magical item, you may choose to exchange its magical properties with another item, including a non-magical item, you already possess. You may do this by attuning to both this new item and your existing item, following the normal rules for attunement. If an item does not normally require attunement***, you may and must still do so for this exchange, but without using an attunement slot.​

Where I've put the '***' in there, add "or cannot normally be attuned" or similar, to cover off non-magical weapons.

After attuning to both items, you may spend one hour touching one item to the other. At the end of this uninterrupted hour, the magical properties (or lack thereof) of the two objects are magically swapped.

As an example, if you find a Sun Blade and you already have a +1 longbow, their properties would swap so that the Sun Blade becomes a +1 longsword and your +1 longbow becomes a Sun Bow.

Similarly, if you find a +2 longbow and you already have an ordinary dagger, their properties would swap so that the +2 longbow becomes an ordinary longbow and your ordinary dagger becomes a +2 dagger.

With your DM's permission, you may spend four uninterrupted hours touching one item to the other and transfer all of the properties from one to the other, making the first an ordinary, non-magical item and the second a magical item with the combined magical properties of the two items.

Danger, Will Robinson!

As written, this last clause would get broken before you could say 'quidditch'.

I have a Sunblade. I find a +1 longbow and take the 4 hours to move its +1 into the Sunblade. Then I find a Dagger of Speed and take 4 hours to move the speed function into my Sunblade. Later, I find a +2 mace and take 4 hours to move that +2 into the Sunblade, making it +3. In the same hoard is a crossbow, +1 to hit with a charming function. Guess where those features end up.

So now I've got a +4 Sunblade of Speed and Charming...and I ain't done yet. There's lots more magic weapons out there!

Simple solution: "No single weapon may ever undergo this process more than once. If tried a second time on a weapon, nothing happens." (may need to make this wordier to account for mundane weapons not having enough magic to 'know' if they've been through this before)

Lanefan

 

[ro]

It's better, but see below...

Where I've put the '***' in there, add "or cannot normally be attuned" or similar, to cover off non-magical weapons.

Good change. Thanks!

Danger, Will Robinson!

As written, this last clause would get broken before you could say 'quidditch'.

I have a Sunblade. I find a +1 longbow and take the 4 hours to move its +1 into the Sunblade. Then I find a Dagger of Speed and take 4 hours to move the speed function into my Sunblade. Later, I find a +2 mace and take 4 hours to move that +2 into the Sunblade, making it +3. In the same hoard is a crossbow, +1 to hit with a charming function. Guess where those features end up.

So now I've got a +4 Sunblade of Speed and Charming...and I ain't done yet. There's lots more magic weapons out there!

Simple solution: "No single weapon may ever undergo this process more than once. If tried a second time on a weapon, nothing happens." (may need to make this wordier to account for mundane weapons not having enough magic to 'know' if they've been through this before)

Lanefan

It might be worth pointing out that attunement requirements are also transferred.

Yeah, this is why I added "With your DM's permission". I don't want to limit a weapon to doing this only once because you should be able to upgrade the same weapon to +1, then +2, then +3 (by finding a +3 weapon; not by finding addition +1 weapons!). But stacking of abilities should never happen without your DM's explicit permission. Combining magical features is not necessarily overpowered, but it does certainly raise the effective rarity of a magical weapon.