D&D 5E Xanathar’s Guide to Everything is the fastest-selling Dungeons & Dragons book of all time

[Wulffolk]

[MENTION=6749462]ad-hoc[/MENTION] Did you completely miss the point when I said that I hadn't asked you to convince me that my opinion is wrong? That is something you took upon yourself. If you really feel the need to "win" an argument against somebody's opinion then you need to be able to make a coherent point instead of just trying to argue about the argument. Anyways, thanks for the diversion, but it is time to drive home from work now. If you can't sleep without "winning" then please consider myself convinced of your point. BTW, what was your point again? Whatever it was, consider me convinced.

 

[see]

I have seen people claim that producing more books would reduce sales, because 3.5e, instead of acknowledging what the root cause of the problems with 3.5e were. What evidence has been presented to support that claim?

Well, yes. The correct form of the argument is not "because 3.5e", it's "because 2e, 3e, 3.5e, 4e, and even late 1e".

Early AD&D 1st Edition was slow-release -- over 1977-1984, there were eight years with five hardback releases. Then, 1985-1987, over three years, there were six hardback releases. The resulting pattern is that every time that D&D has a large line, the result was a soon-following reboot (late 1st, 3rd, 3.5, 4th) to rescue sales, or outright corporate bankruptcy (2nd). And the times that either they've kept the line small with a slow release schedule (1st, 5th), or the line is small because it's new (all other editions), D&D has done well.

Obviously, this isn't a randomized-controlled-trial level of proof. But I know which way I'd bet if I were in charge of D&D.

 

[Hussar]

It still baffles me how anyone could be starved for 5e content anyway. Good grief, go over to DriveThruRPG and there are thousands of titles for 5e for every possible thing you could want for pretty much any price point you could want.

Exactly how much material does an edition need?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't know, I think it depends on the campaign. We have a Great Old One Warlock that is fun as hell. He's using his awakened mind, high charisma, Actor's feat, disguise, and craftiness to be one of the main drivers of the campaign. Those Invocations give so much raw role playing and constant low-level capability that zigs where everyone else zags. It makes for a really interesting contrast to the martials and the 'gotta watch my spell slots' casters.

I made a Eldritch Tinker that was a reflavored ArchFey Tomelock, who reflavored all his spells and Invocations as potions, infusions, and enchanted items, or weird jury rigged combinations of those things.

Mechanically, he kicked A**! Eldritch Blast with agonizing, spear, and Repelling, is a whomper of a cantrip, and that’s not getting into the real spells or the non EB Invocations. I took War Caster and Spell Sniper, and eventually Elementalist, and nothing could stand in my way.

 

[Mistwell]

I would say not, but I would say, 3.5 (and probably even 4e) made a LOT more money than 5e has.

Unless virtually every WOTC D&D exec is just outright lying, then this is false. Three execs (Crawford, Mearls, Perkins) have all confirmed 5e has made more money than 3.5 and 4e. In addition, "2017 has been D&D's most successful year in the 20 years I've been with Wizards" said Perkins just a couple days ago. We also have quarterly Hasbro report meetings, which are governed by FEC regulations for accuracy, which stated D&D is doing better than it had done in the 3.5 and 4e years.

This is WHY Paizo can keep up with WotC in regards to RPGs. Currently their books might not sell as many as any single 5e release, but combined, all those books make MORE money for them overall than WotC makes from D&D.

Paizo is not keeping up any more. ICV2 releases retail sales numbers (which are combined for all book sales), and 5e is beating Pathfinder by a good margin. All the online play platforms like Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds report 5e is being played a lot more than Pathfinder. And of course all the other sales metrics like New York Times bestseller list, the Amazon and Barnes and Nobel best seller lists, and the combined sellers lists out there, all show 5e is doing much MUCH better than Pathfinder.

Contrast that with literally zero evidence the combined Pathfinder sales are beating the combined 5e sales, and I am just not sure how anyone can continue to make that claim these days. It's a theory some floated before the hard evidence started to come in, but at this point, I think it's just not a tenable position to take any longer. In fact, given the 5e PHB remains in the top 100 of all book sales for the nation (for all types of books) nearly four years after it's release, and I think it's like the PHB alone has made more money than the entire Pathfinder line for the past several years.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

There are only certain types of people that go to the FLGS.
RPG players, war gamers and card gamers

Not one of those types of players would be intimidated by a few more books on the shelf. It might actually get more attention from them.

Casual non-gamers do not go to the FLGS in the first place, and if the did it would not be a few more books on the shelf that made D&D seem nerdy compared to the crowd of socially awkward card gamers that they would witness there.

Completely false.

New players absolutely do go into FLGSs. Kids go in to check out what is in there, or looking for games, or because they have an uncle that talks about how cool dnd is.

It happens frequently, and consistently.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It still baffles me how anyone could be starved for 5e content anyway. Good grief, go over to DriveThruRPG and there are thousands of titles for 5e for every possible thing you could want for pretty much any price point you could want.

Exactly how much material does an edition need?

Very little of that content is useful to a group that either doesn’t want to comb over it for balance issues and adjust as needed, or doesn’t feel confident in trying. Because mechanically, most of it is a bloody mess.

 

[ad_hoc]

Contrast that with literally zero evidence the combined Pathfinder sales are beating the combined 5e sales, and I am just not sure how anyone can continue to make that claim these days. It's a theory some floated before the hard evidence started to come in, but at this point, I think it's just not a tenable position to take any longer. In fact, given the 5e PHB remains in the top 100 of all book sales for the nation (for all types of books) nearly four years after it's release, and I think it's like the PHB alone has made more money than the entire Pathfinder line for the past several years.

I agree.

I think the disconnect is that we are all used to D&D being a niche in hobby games. We see D&D as a competitor in the RPG market. We see the different RPGs all appealing to various parts of the same population.

It's hard to grasp that after all this time D&D is appealing to a wide audience again.

RPG sales have tripled in the last 3 years in the US and Canada. It's hard to believe that this is a result of a reshuffling of the same population of RPG players.

 

[Hussar]

Very little of that content is useful to a group that either doesn’t want to comb over it for balance issues and adjust as needed, or doesn’t feel confident in trying. Because mechanically, most of it is a bloody mess.

Really? What are you basing that on?

I have used numerous 3pp modules, and I'm running Primeval Thule right now. I'm really not seeing the "bloody mess" that you're talking about. Many of the modules that i've looked have have been pretty spot on. Some are not to my taste, but, that's a different kettle of fish.

It's not 2001 anymore. People have been pumping out material for D&D for over a decade now. And with a system that is as robust as 5e, it's actually pretty hard to be too unbalanced.

 

[schnee]

RPG sales have tripled in the last 3 years in the US and Canada. It's hard to believe that this is a result of a reshuffling of the same population of RPG players.

Not in any order, but huge Marvel comic book movie success, great new Dr. Who / Supernatural / etc. on TV, Oodles of Twitch and YouTube streams + Critical Role + Wil Wheaton + Felicia Day, fantasy fandom being bigger and more inclusive than ever, a thriving Cosplay / convention / fantasy scene, fantastically well-received Lord of the Rings + Harry Potter, ease of finding stuff on the Internet, etc. all add up to a much larger potential audience than before.

Hell, if you compare to the 80's, we've also added 80 million more people.