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D&D 5E Xanathar’s Guide to Everything is the fastest-selling Dungeons & Dragons book of all time

Hussar

Legend
Wuffolk said:
I just don't buy the correlation between producing less books equalling higher sales. 5e is set up better than previous editions, so would not have the same issues as 3.5e or PF.

There's a point you're missing though. Common wisdom says that there are many more players than DM's, therefore the market for players is much larger. Makes a lot of sense. But, that ignores a very important point. Players only (generally) play one character at a time. And each class is only played by a small percentage of the total number of players at any given time.

Thus, any specific class splat only applies to a very small slice of the market at any given time. And, some classes are a LOT less popular than others, making any splat for that class really dicey when it comes to sales.

So, sure, you could pump out 11 class splats, same as they did for 2e, 3e and 4e, one for each class, to meet demand. But, the demand for each of those splats is actually quite small, meaning each splat only sells to that slice of the pie. Sure, it might carry over later as players change characters, but, you still have to front the money for each splat.

XGtE appeals to everyone at the same time. Everyone has something to use in that book. And you only have to publish one book. One book that sells several times more than 11 books is a far, far better investment, even if the total number of book sales is much smaller. Don't forget that your fixed costs means that the first several thousand sales of each book make no profit.

They aren't leaving any money on the table actually by doing this. They are combining sales of all splats into one product, which even though its total sales might be much smaller than the total sales of 11 titles, will overall make MUCH more money.
 

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Wulffolk

Explorer
[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] I was actually arguing that more books like XGtE would be better than more adventure paths. I don't think that a splat book for each class is a good idea. I wouldn't mind seeing combined books like martial, arcane, divine, etc. I would like to see a newer book of Dwarves or Elves, or a book of Psionics (which I am sure we are getting eventually), etc.
 
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GreyLord

Legend
And you base this on your extensive market research...?

I would say not, but I would say, 3.5 (and probably even 4e) made a LOT more money than 5e has.

Not hard numbers, but guesses, but used as examples.

If you see 25 books and at $30 a pop and only sell 50,000 copies, that equals around 37-38 million dollars.

You sell 2 books at $30 a pop (because, let's face it, most people are buying online rather than at bookstores at full retail on these books) and sell a 500K of them, you've only made 30 million dollars, despite each book selling 10X the amount of any of the other books in the other lines.

Now 3e and 3.5 had even more releases than that, but we're just using some little numbers here for comparison. Same with 5e (though it's not that far from 2 releases, you've had 2 releases for players really, though the Monster book is debatable as it had SOME player stuff in there...but so do some of the modules). [A better comparison may be Pathfinder and Paizo right now, which release at least 15 or more books if you include their APs each year].

4e, even with only 10,000 subscribers a month at $10 each made 100K a month, for 1.2 million a year for not much on WotC's side of the equation. The original 3, lets say, which sold quicker at first than 3e or 3.5 (but slowed down considerably afterwards) has around 1.1 million sales overall in the first year at $20 a pop (because, though more arguable as more people bought retail back then...apples to apples, we'll compare online prices) for 22 million for those. With around 20 books released in the first two years, and another 20 the two years after that, even with reducing returns (so around 500K at first, down to 10K at the end)...we'll even the first two years to around 100K buyers for each book at $20 a pop to get around 40 million (which unfortunately means though it seemed it might be on target at first...means it feel short of the 50 million mark set by Hasbro...but there were more subscribers then so we'll say it came close and had around 8 million come in from the subsriptions for a total of 48 million, not hitting the mark set by Hasbro...but CLOSE). The second two years...we get an average of 30,000 buyers at $20 a pop for 20 books for far less around a 22.5 million return.

But the above explains WHY 3e-4e had a MUCH LARGER D&D department, as they were trying to be a major brand for WotC and Hasbro. However, they failed.

So, 5e has a far smaller department because they are a branch now, rather than even trying to be a major brand. This is why they also have less releases, they are more like Monopoly or Risk rather than Magic or Major Brand departments that carry the company.

So, with 5e, you have 1.5 million buy the core books at $30 a pop, giving them 45 million. Good return, giving them more than 4e made on the core books. However, you sell only around 300K of the first module (not bad considering the end of 4e, but not great considering all the sales you could have gotten). We still have to keep it under the major brand category, because they haven't made it into a major brand with 5e yet. So, whatever they sold, it had to be less than 50 million, though it could be on par with 4e at that point.

However, AFTER that, the DM books/modules do not sell as well as other books...soooo...we are looking at 300-400K a pop maybe...twice a year (I rounded it up to 500K to try to be more fair, but I think the average is 1/5 as many DM books sold compared to a player book?).

This is WHY Paizo can keep up with WotC in regards to RPGs. Currently their books might not sell as many as any single 5e release, but combined, all those books make MORE money for them overall than WotC makes from D&D.

I think that's what he was saying. By NOT selling books you avoid oversaturating the market (something 4e did very well [aka the market got oversaturated] and even 3.5 as sales kept diminishing more and more and more with each book), but at the same time you miss out on all the money you MIGHT make if you sold more books.

On the otherhand, for the D&D player, the 5e release rate makes it far easier to buy the books than the numbers which were released in 4e and 3.5 were if one wanted to get them all.

I'd say there may be a better middle ground, but considering that 5e has another splat coming in the next year, they probably have that idea as well (splats have been coming out in an increasing number comparatively to the first year or two.

Adding: That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Xanathar sold a million books the first year of it's release, but if we take into account Amazon is probably selling them dirt cheap, the totals (so not what WotC actually sees) is still probably only going to be in the 30-35 million dollar range. Not bad, but not as good as selling a ton of books like Paizo does in how much money one sees (and especially as these are indirect sales rather than as Paizo does some of their sales directly from them to the customer over the internet).
 
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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
This is WHY Paizo can keep up with WotC in regards to RPGs. Currently their books might not sell as many as any single 5e release, but combined, all those books make MORE money for them overall than WotC makes from D&D.

While this theoretically *could* be true based on the lack of evidence we have, there's also no evidence to suggest that it is. None of us have the faintest idea how much money WotC or Paizo is making overall. We can make up numbers and multiply them together until the cows come home, but that's just meaningless in the absence of actual figures. And we don't have those.
 

GreyLord

Legend
While this theoretically *could* be true based on the lack of evidence we have, there's also no evidence to suggest that it is. None of us have the faintest idea how much money WotC or Paizo is making overall. We can make up numbers and multiply them together until the cows come home, but that's just meaningless in the absence of actual figures. And we don't have those.

This is true, but we can KNOW the approximate size of the company in regards to how many employees they have. 3e and 4e supported more employees working than 5e does. Paizo supports more employees than 5e does.

If something is selling so well, normally that implies one should expand, rather than contract (and normally in business you are expanding or contracting...staying put is basically equal to contracting). If it was doing as well as 3e did, we should expect them to have a rise to the number of employees they had, at least at the end of 4e. I haven't seen that yet.

Paizo does very well from what I've seen, thus far, and I'd say with the number of employees they currently have, are probably bringing in more money overall than the D&D branch of WotC...just a guess.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
This is true, but we can KNOW the approximate size of the company in regards to how many employees they have. 3e and 4e supported more employees working than 5e does. Paizo supports more employees than 5e does.

If something is selling so well, normally that implies one should expand, rather than contract (and normally in business you are expanding or contracting...staying put is basically equal to contracting). If it was doing as well as 3e did, we should expect them to have a rise to the number of employees they had, at least at the end of 4e. I haven't seen that yet.

Paizo does very well from what I've seen, thus far, and I'd say with the number of employees they currently have, are probably bringing in more money overall than the D&D branch of WotC...just a guess.

Well yeah. Just a guess. Also, a leaner company can be more profitable. And a larger company with a lean division can benefit from many advantages. It's all just noise, really. No information.

and normally in business you are expanding or contracting...staying put is basically equal to contracting

Hmmm. That's an overly simplistic viewpoint. The goal of (some, like this) business is to profit, not to expand or contract.

The number of employees you have is not a measure of profitability. Companies far, far larger, with tens of thousands of employees, have gone bankrupt. Tiny companies have made millions.
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guachi

Hero
It's $30 on Amazon, that is the price everywhere else needs to compete with.

"Retail" price is a thing of the past.

And, yet, at $30 it's still above my valuing it at $20. When I said it wasn't worth $50 MSRP I was taking into account reductions that places like Amazon would take. Though for many of us it's worth supporting the FLGS. By pricing it at $50 they've made it a poor value to purchase at a FLGS.

If it were priced at $35 MSRP then it'd be $20 at Amazon and that would meet what I value the book at. Xanathar's is overpriced. It's the Beats Headphones of RPG material.
 

Wulffolk

Explorer
I think that's what he was saying. By NOT selling books you avoid oversaturating the market (something 4e did very well [aka the market got oversaturated] and even 3.5 as sales kept diminishing more and more and more with each book), but at the same time you miss out on all the money you MIGHT make if you sold more books.

Thank you, [MENTION=4348]GreyLord[/MENTION]

That is essentially what I was getting at. I would like to see a greater quantity of player option material, but not quite so much as 3.5e and PF. I would like to see WotC find a nice middle ground.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
I haven't asked you to convince me to change my mind. I have only shared my opinion. You are welcome to disagree.

You never answered my question so I'm just going to go ahead and assume no amount of evidence will change your mind.


This is WHY Paizo can keep up with WotC in regards to RPGs. Currently their books might not sell as many as any single 5e release, but combined, all those books make MORE money for them overall than WotC makes from D&D.

2013 saw $15 million in sales in RPGs in the US and Canada.

2016 saw $45 million in sales in RPGs in the US and Canada.

In the Spring of 2014 D&D sales weren't even in the top 5 of RPGs. Since the release of 5e RPG sales have tripled. The reasonable conclusion here is that D&D total sales absolutely dwarf Pathfinder's sales. Obviously that $30 million increase isn't all 5e, a rising tide and all that, but it's hard to argue it isn't a large chunk. RPG sales are also showing the biggest gains in year to year growth of all hobby games.


As for splat books, the following is my conjecture on the matter. The more stuff added onto the game the more nerdy it becomes both in substance and in image. The more nerdy it becomes the less appealing it is to a regular audience. Further 5e has been a phenomenal success and WotC have both put in a lot of money into market research and have the best data on it. I am more inclined to trust their judgment than people who don't have that data.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
Someone in the thread commented that the more total books there are in 5e the more shelf space D&D will take up in the FLGS.

That is true, and really bad for D&D sales. New players. That is what drives sales. New players don't want to see 20 books on the shelves.
 

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