Will D&D make strength matter again?

[FrogReaver]

ESPECIALLY BOWS! Sure Dex (hand-eye coordination) may factor into aiming, but the draw weight of bows should factor into it.

It would likely be too fiddley, but I think +Dex to hit and Str to damage for long bows and short bows. Heck, I'd even add a minimum Str requirement to the long bow (and a few melee weapons)

+dex to hit and +str to damage probably should be a thing on most weapons not just bows if you want to get really simulationy.

As long as the weapon based classes were compensated somewhere else for now requiring 2 stats to use weapons it wouldn't be bad.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

He didn't say that. He said great weapon fighting was "tired", so the reasonable assumption is that he's talking about one handed weapons.

And indeed he is; he specifically brings up longsword and battleaxe.

He's obviously talking 1H weapons.

Unless you're a Hexblade? or Kensai, longswords and battleaxes are Strength-based weapons. Weapon + shield seems to be the most common combination of them, but I've even seen characters dual-wielding them. 2-handed wielding seem to be a little less popular than S&B, but generally characters will go with a dedicated 2-handed weapon if they go that route.

Kind of...

At will-DPR the rogue/fighter at level 11 will do a little more than the pure fighter (any variety) against most AC's (and against the more common AC's for those levels). ***A single +1 magic weapon likely changes that.

However, action surge gets better with that 3rd extra attack and superiority dice continue to grow in number and size as the pure fighter levels. Those 2 things tend to put the pure fighter doing maybe 10% more daily damage than the fighter rogue who has only a slight amount of higher at-will DPR.

Ah. Interesting. What percentage of attacks eligible for sneak attack are you using?

ESPECIALLY BOWS! Sure Dex (hand-eye coordination) may factor into aiming, but the draw weight of bows should factor into it.

It would likely be too fiddley, but I think +Dex to hit and Str to damage for long bows and short bows. Heck, I'd even add a minimum Str requirement to the long bow (and a few melee weapons)

I basically gave bows finesse so you can use either Str or Dex with them. I also removed the weapon limitations for Sneak Attack.

Amusingly enough, if you go the route of Str minimums for weapons, Rapier requires greater strength to use effectively than a longsword does.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ah. Interesting. What percentage of attacks eligible for sneak attack are you using?

100% as it's trivially easy to get 100% of attacks eligible for sneak attack with the rogue swashbuckler subclass. For ranged rouges the assassain rogue works the best IMO as it ensure sneak attack on turn 1 and then allies will be near enemies for most the rest of the fight or you can ready an action easy enough or you can hide to try and get advantage. All in all you will be very close to 100% uptime on sneak attack.

 

[CapnZapp]

Unless you're a Hexblade? or Kensai, longswords and battleaxes are Strength-based weapons.

I never said they weren't.

The OP is complaining longswords and battleaxes isn't the go-to weapon for most fighters. In particular, he wants the Regular Joe of a fighter to want to use strength even for 1H weapons!

 

[CapnZapp]

The problem with Rogues is that WotC did not provide them with any meaningful feat upgrade.

In games w/o feats, Sneak damage keeps pace with other martial damage, even if just barely. But feats grant fighters a massive DPR increase without offering the Rogue any similar venue.

The problem with "but don't use feats then" is that the Paladin's smites (and spellcasting in general) become overwhelmingly superior alternatives.

The only real solution (RAW) is to minmax the Rogue to the hilt. Getting 100% sneak attacks is one thing (and getting a second attack helps with that, since you have two chances of sticking it) but what you really need is more than one sneak attack a round.

This means that any player that isn't sufficiently minmaxing will suffer. As a Rogue you really need expert play. You need to make sure you get to use your reaction to make a sneak-enabled attack as often as possible.

Multiclassing is not the solution since it stops your sneak progression. The final analysis becomes: "as soon as you branch out of Rogue, maybe don't take any Rogue levels at all."

PS. All of this is said from a combat-heavy focus. Please don't tell me you can play a Rogue for other reasons than DPR. DS.

 

[FrogReaver]

The problem with Rogues is that WotC did not provide them with any meaningful feat upgrade.

In games w/o feats, Sneak damage keeps pace with other martial damage, even if just barely. But feats grant fighters a massive DPR increase without offering the Rogue any similar venue.

The problem with "but don't use feats then" is that the Paladin's smites (and spellcasting in general) become overwhelmingly superior alternatives.

The only real solution (RAW) is to minmax the Rogue to the hilt. Getting 100% sneak attacks is one thing (and getting a second attack helps with that, since you have two chances of sticking it) but what you really need is more than one sneak attack a round.

This means that any player that isn't sufficiently minmaxing will suffer. As a Rogue you really need expert play. You need to make sure you get to use your reaction to make a sneak-enabled attack as often as possible.

Multiclassing is not the solution since it stops your sneak progression. The final analysis becomes: "as soon as you branch out of Rogue, maybe don't take any Rogue levels at all."

PS. All of this is said from a combat-heavy focus. Please don't tell me you can play a Rogue for other reasons than DPR. DS.

I've found that if I make a level 5-6 SS CE Fighter / Rouge (assassain) X that this generally keeps up in daily damage with the single classed fighter when all damage giving factors are accounted for. (even the SS and GWM fighters)

 

[5ekyu]

Maybe in a white room DPR only context the STR vs DEX is skewed but in practice the other aspects strength gives provide many,options in a more robust set of situations. Grappling is a big option and it generally depends on strength.

 

[CapnZapp]

I've found that if I make a level 5-6 SS CE Fighter / Rouge (assassain) X that this generally keeps up in daily damage with the single classed fighter when all damage giving factors are accounted for. (even the SS and GWM fighters)

Without knowing the specifics, it sounds to me what you have found is that you can make a SS CE fighter that keeps up in damage.

 

[FrogReaver]

Without knowing the specifics, it sounds to me what you have found is that you can make a SS CE fighter that keeps up in damage.

What it means is that there is some Battlemaster 6 / Assassain 5 can do just as well in daily damage as any Battlemaster 11 you want to pit it up against.

 

[Caliban]

But how many of them are not 2H fighters?!

A lot, actually. Mostly paladins and barbarians with shields. The 2H fighters do outnumber them, but not by an overwhelming amount.

This is just in my local AL gaming groups (so about 30 or so players with several characters each over the last 5 years) - I'm not making any claims about the entire 5e player base. Just my personal experience.