Guidance Cleric cantrip is really dumb

[abirdcall]

I think whether Guidance is fine or a problem depends on how the table uses ability checks.

At my table ability checks only happen when they are important, the outcome is in doubt, and there are consequences. There are no trivial ability checks as that takes interrupts the flow and tension of our game.

In each scene the players are asked what their character is doing. Then time passes and checks are made if they are warranted. So if a Cleric has Guidance they have the chance to cast it for one character, bit not all of them. As it is touch and only lasts a minute it might not even be possible to use it on certain characters. The Cleric would need to.be nearby.

 

[ClaytonCross]

Sorry I had not seen this reply earlier.

No problem the thread is long, It happens to us all.

It's not the spamming the OP is talking about. Whether or not you want to call it a form of spamming, this isn't the one we're discussing. Move on from it. If you have an issue with this sort of spamming fair enough, but it's not the type the OP mentioned.

Its not the word the OP used but I quoted the OP in saying he doesn't like the Cleric being required for every check and players waiting form him all the time. Your the one ignoring this because you are only stuck on the verbal "I cast guidance!" so instead you have traded it to "I move so that player X is in range of my guidance aura" Which doesn't help the issue the OP stated. I used the quotes from the OP. Its what he said. If your ignore the OPs statements your not being useful to the OP and why are you here?

Oh come on.

You're out of combat. There is no purpose to the issue you raised. If the Cleric can easily come within 30', then you just assume the come within 30' without the need to role play it. This is one of those issues someone raises in a white room hypothetical which has no purpose in practice. If you need to use for example a rope to tie to something, you don't need to say I detach the rope from my backpack...you just say you use the rope. If you're rolling a d4 added to your skill check, you just use the d4 and it's assumed it's because the cleric is in 30'. As long as you're not in initiative there is no risk to the issue and therefore no reason to worry over it.

The issue the OP stated is the Clerics involvement in every check and interrupting players to be a part of everything. There is still a sequence of events out of combat and the Cleric can only be in one place at a time. Waiting for the cleric to perform actions in or out of combat still creates the same problem. Your aura does not fix that.

There are no turns. Nobody is waiting anything. You're out of initiative. You just roll the d4 and add it to your check and any competent DM will have no issue with it and nobody will need say a word to break immersion. This is a manufactured "issue".

There does not have to be initiative to have players taking "turns" and have sequence of events. Player 1 is in room A doing a search, Player 2 is in room B checking a chest for traps...They can't act at the same time and the cleric "guide" them both, so now they narrate waiting and taking turns using the Cleric which is exactly what the OP said he didn't want and I quoted it many times now.

This is not the issue the OP was raised. He said he'd seen others propose it but he had no issues with the mechanics of Guidance. You think he is making an issue of it, but he's not. He doesn't care. Nor should he - the help action does even more than guidance for those sorts of issues.

I am not talking about the mechanics of the 1d4 I am talking about the over use of the spell on every action and listing the concerns the OP raised and I did so with quotes of the OP raising the issue. ....

Nope. Stop. This is not the OPs claim, it's yours. He doesn't care about the mechanical issues and "every check is non-trivial" is a mechanics response.

He is tired of the Cleric being involved in every test. As I quoted. I just restated that. Obviously if every test was life and death it shouldn't be a problem since that is what the GM is going for. If he expects players to be willing to run checks without every bonus, then some checks are trivial or at lest not so important that the Cleric needs to be involved.

Like I said earlier, YOU are stuck on the mechanical parts of it. I don't know why. If I "spammed" the help action on every little skill check, what would you do?

I am not suck on the mechanical part, I am stuck on the OPs point of breaking immersion by having the Cleric be involved in every character test and action not letting other players "shine" by constantly steeling every other characters action as part of its own and having every character wait for the Cleric. Your stuck on the word "spam" ... its a cantrip and that is the behavior described but the issue is emersion. I am just using spamming to describe the action. You solution on address the verbal component of a 3 part issue sometimes.

Non-issue. It's only for out-of-combat and out-of-initiative. I addressed this when I raised the proposal to begin with. There are no timing issues if you're not in initiative. Nor does it stack with Bless because, of course it still does have the same limit in the spell of concentration. Nobody said anything about it not being an actual spell in-game being used, it's just the immersion issues are dealt with if you treat it AS IF it were an aura that was always on in appropriate circumstances.

4 is total my issue and opinion. But its also evident that that the game designers gave the spell concentration as limitation which you removed. I just explained why I think that makes since. If you disagree with guidance being restricted with concentration because its "out-of-combat" your fighting the balance and design by wizards of the cost not me. I just happened to agree with them.

 

[ClaytonCross]

I think whether Guidance is fine or a problem depends on how the table uses ability checks.

At my table ability checks only happen when they are important, the outcome is in doubt, and there are consequences. There are no trivial ability checks as that takes interrupts the flow and tension of our game.

In each scene the players are asked what their character is doing. Then time passes and checks are made if they are warranted. So if a Cleric has Guidance they have the chance to cast it for one character, bit not all of them. As it is touch and only lasts a minute it might not even be possible to use it on certain characters. The Cleric would need to.be nearby.

I 100% agree with you. ...But... That assumes players are not metagaming, acting without outside knowledge, or your just restricting the Cleric to "pick one to help, because your all of doing your own things at the same time"

I think the issue the OP is having comes from the "you walk into a long hall way with 3 doors, one is open, what do you do?"

The Scout wants to look around the room (perception check?)
The Wizard wants to search the open room (investigation check?)
The Rogue wants to check one of the closed doors to see if its trapped and/or locked and work his way in.

The GM wants to let them all do their things and actually has something for them all but they all wait for the Cleric to walk around casting Guidance.

So wild he doesn't mind the extra 1d4 he seems to be getting annoyed with all action waiting for the Cleric. If there are not trivial checks and they are all acting at the same time then only one should get guidance, so... they all wait for the cleric to walk around one at a time. Sure, all the checks have an important none trivial check the GM prepared... but how do the players know that? Why do they all treat every check as important without knowing they are? When the rogue finds the door is trapped, he calls for the Cleric for guidance because he now knows he is in danger but why would the rest wait? If all checks are important the players learn to wait because they know they would not get a role unless it was. So roll means I need guidance. The characters don't know and would appear to be waiting for no reason and that breaks immersion. That is the root of the OPs issue.

To me (and the OP can correct me if I am wrong) but the problem the OP is laying out is that the players are meta-gaming and breaking emersion for everyone to wait for Cleric Guidance spam because they are all desperate not to fail any important check that the characters would never know is important.

 

[bmcdaniel]

That's actually a good way to help the OPs issue since the player will get tired of saying prayers during a session if he is casting guidance on every 5 ft. The player will likely reduce casting it to more important checks. Better solution than I came up with and better than the counter productive aura.

I am really impressed at that solution.

Yes, it actually serves two purposes:

(1) Enhances immersion by putting the guidance in context. It makes the cleric act correctly priestly. It makes the recipient appropriately grateful to the god, (and if they don't support the god, they will sometimes reject guidance).

(2) It also imposes a small out-of-game cost to prevent spamming the cantrip at every opportunity. The cost comes from both the need to recite the prayer, but also a feeling that it should only be used non-frivolously. A character that prays to Pelor for guidance on Con checks to avoid becoming drunk when drinking heavily, is probably going to be disappointed...

 

[abirdcall]

So wild he doesn't mind the extra 1d4 he seems to be getting annoyed with all action waiting for the Cleric. If there are not trivial checks and they are all acting at the same time then only one should get guidance, so... they all wait for the cleric to walk around one at a time.

If time is not a factor then this situation is no different than the entire party waiting around and helping each other. Or taking a long rest after every combat encounter.

There need to be consequences. If there are no consequences then Guidance is the least of the problems.

 

[ClaytonCross]

If time is not a factor then this situation is no different than the entire party waiting around and helping each other. Or taking a long rest after every combat encounter.

There need to be consequences. If there are no consequences then Guidance is the least of the problems.

I agree. I think my solution was an attempt at this by asking players to see reason but bmcdaniel's solution comes with a cost and labor to the actual cleric player while bringing the characters faith to the front to make more immersive role play. I like that especially because in games I have played in Clerics tend to want to hand wave their deity instead of role play it so I consider it improving not only the OP's issue by giving a meta-game cost to a meta-game reaction which has the potential to break immersion AND it encourages Cleric's role play relationship to their deity.

My solution "Talk to players and ask them to meta game less" and/or "Send two things at them at once" both have problems, being that habits are hard to break and having to come up with 2 important checks or timing enemies seems like a punishment for using the ability (which is why I listed it as a backup) and a drain on the GM. bmcdaniel's solution adds a cost that might effectively "train" players to be more spearing and meta-game less.

Anyway. That's my take on it. I would suggest that route to the OP and maybe talk to players to explain the change, its worth a shot, but will depend on the players as to how effective its. Best of luck to him though.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The Scout wants to look around the room (perception check?)
The Wizard wants to search the open room (investigation check?)

Neither of these warrant a skill roll. If the wizard wants to look for something in particular, like a trap on the door, then they can make a roll, but it would be a good idea for the rogue to wait until after before trying to open it.

Skill rolls aside, one of the useful life skills that can be learned from D&D is how to co-ordinate, rather than run around like headless chickens.

 

[ClaytonCross]

Neither of these warrant a skill roll. If the wizard wants to look for something in particular, like a trap on the door, then they can make a roll, but it would be a good idea for the rogue to wait until after before trying to open it.

Skill rolls aside, one of the useful life skills that can be learned from D&D is how to co-ordinate, rather than run around like headless chickens.

Every campaign I have ever played under any GM, scouting a room for anything suspicious was perception roll, it could be passive but I have never had a GM play it that way. I do use passive when I GM though so its going to depend of course. Same goes for investigating a room. I will also add that while I run passives I will let players do active searches for a chance at a higher roll for a search or perception check if they call it, where I use passive as a minimum for those 2 skills. Again just me and this is all just about a random not well thought out example to illustrate a point, so Its not really worth it to me to go on tangent about when a skill roll should be used. I am just trying to say that is the point where the OP is saying immersion is getting broken not dictate a specific type of play.

Coordination is fine but dependence can be an issue. Your rogue waiting for the cleric... good coordination, I agree. Having the cleric "guide" a room search where the player doesn't expect to find anything or having the cleric run over to "guide" a rear guard on a perception check when no one is expecting someone from behind they are just doing it for good measure is not coordination. Its meta-gaming dependence and it breaks immersion as well as belittles the players who might otherwise have a "moment to shine" as the OP put it. I would be annoyed as a GM if I asked for a roll to open a stuck door and the Cleric yelled "I cast guidance!" just as the OP is. The only reason the Cleric knows the player might need help is because I as the GM asked for a role. Now if the player tried and failed, said "can someone give me a hand here this door will not open", then a second player said I help for advantage and the Cleric said "I cast guidance!" then sure. Coordination. No issue with that or them working as a team. The issue is meta-gaming every roll with guidance. There is a time to just let a player roll.

That's my opinion anyway.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Another solution:
Make it clear, that casting spells while speaking to others is rude at least. It is also suspicious and may instantly change the outcome of a negotiation to a fight.

And actually, just be glad that characters an more easily do things. It usually only helps the story. Just have an eye on it how other people react to such a cleric. And also ask the other characters how they feel about not doing things on their own. Why wait for a cleric to bless you with good fortune if you can do it on your own.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think we now have a new meme for someone that is wrong and digs in about his wrongness.

"Dude you pulled a Clayton Cross"