D&D 5E Is my DM being fair?

[iserith]

Too many people, both DMs and players, confuse being surprised with being ambushed. The alert feat will not save you from being ambushed, a set piece encounter where the enemy is waiting with readied actions that would trigger before ANY player gets to go. You might not be surprised so the enemy won’t get advantage or anything like that and you will get to go on your turn, but the enemy will still go before you.

The Alert feat is better for the +5 initiative then it is not being surprised.

To my knowledge, you can't take the Ready action outside of combat.

 

[smbakeresq]

To my knowledge, you can't take the Ready action outside of combat.

They are in combat, they have set an ambush, which means they know you are coming. They have been in combat rounds already, over and over, waiting for you to get to the ambush point. The fact that the players don’t yet know they are in combat is irrelevant; get a higher perception score.

A simple example, a rug of smothering. It sits there, as soon as you get with 60’ it’s rounds start as it has blindsense 60’. The players are also in combat, but don’t know it. As soon as Mr. Alert steps onto the Rug it attacks first, then you roll for surprise and initiative as appropriate. Mr. Alert has a much better chance to get to go before the Rugs next turn as opposed to the Rug going twice in a row.

Some DM’s, including me sometimes for speed, will just put the Rug on top of initiative, but that’s penalized players who try max initiative.

 

[iserith]

They are in combat, they have set an ambush, which means they know you are coming. They have been in combat rounds already, over and over, waiting for you to get to the ambush point. The fact that the players don’t yet know they are in combat is irrelevant; get a higher perception score.

A simple example, a rug of smothering. It sits there, as soon as you get with 60’ it’s rounds start as it has blindsense 60’. The players are also in combat, but don’t know it. As soon as Mr. Alert steps onto the Rug it attacks first, then you roll for surprise and initiative as appropriate. Mr. Alert has a much better chance to get to go before the Rugs next turn as opposed to the Rug going twice in a row.

Some DM’s, including me sometimes for speed, will just put the Rug on top of initiative, but that’s penalized players who try max initiative.

Though you can of course play this however you want, I don't really see any support in the rules for this interpretation.

In the ambush scenario, whatever benefits the ambushers may accrue come from their enemies being surprised which is determined via their Dexterity (Stealth) check against the PCs' passive Perception scores. The PC with the Alert feat is simply immune to having this condition placed upon him or her while he or she is conscious. First surprise is determined, then positioning, then every participant rolls initiative. Once in initiative, the ambushers can take the Ready action, but at that point, the PCs are also in Initiative, even if they can't see or hear their assailants yet. They can't Ready before Initiative.

For the rug, it's resolved the same way: The Dexterity (Stealth) check of the rug is compared to the PCs' passive Perception scores. Anyone whose score it beats is surprised (except for PCs with the Alert feat) and cannot act on their first turn and can't take reactions until their turn.

 

[smbakeresq]

Another thing most don’t get is being surprised means you still go on your initiative count, you are just denied some (most) actions.

So using my above example Mr. Alert gets ambushed (attacked first) by the Rug. Then you roll for initiatives, put everyone in order, then check to see who is surprised. Mr. Alert is guaranteed to act on his initiative, so he will get a chance to escape on turn 1. The other PCs may not be able to help him, depending on surprise.

If another PC was in that spot, he might be surprised and thus not be able to act on the turn, so that PC would get damaged and not get a chance to escape. Mr. Alert would get his turn to help that PC get out of the Rug.


The Feat is worded poorly, it should be worded similar to the Barbarian feature Feral Rage without the rage condition. It should read “If you are surprised at the beginning of combat and are not incapacitated you can act normally on your first turn.”

 

[smbakeresq]

OP, back on topic, no your DM isn’t being fair.

To me the only remotely OP feat in your case (at first level) is Observant for +5 to passive perception. The passive Perception checks at low levels are low enough that +5 guarantees success in most cases. This effect rapidly disappears as you go up in levels.

Heavy Armor Master at level 1 can effectively double or even triple your HP against creatures you would see. This effect also diminishes (but never goes away and is always effective) as you level up.

 

[CapnZapp]

This effect rapidly disappears as you go up in levels.

No it doesn't. Every party I've DMd have had at least one high-Wis character proficient in Perception with Darkvision.

With a passive perception of 17 and climbing as written nothing gets past this character. Even monsters that are supposed to be sneaky have very rarely more than a 50% chance of beating DC 17. Most monsters, even of relatively high CR, have Stealth +4 or worse.

Getting a +5 on top of this score breaks the game to the extent that you need to toss out the monster stats entirely, if you still like there to be danger lurking in the beyond.

 

[CapnZapp]

I recently joined a beginning 5e campaign where I am playing a human charisma rogue(charlatan background.) I was unable to take the "lucky" feat since the DM deemed it broken, so I took "Alert."

We are all now third level and I have been informed by the DM that I can no longer use the Alert feat. He feels, now, that this feat is broken as well because I can't be surprised, and that I have had crazy high initiative rolls due to the +5 added to initiative rolls, and he finds it hard to come up with a reason to explain why I'm not surprised, so he pulled it from my character.

For those DM's out there, is this fair? As a player do I try to fight it, or just suck it up and take the nerf? I'm assuming I get to pick another feat to replace it, any suggestions?

I'd love to hear your comments!

Since this feat robs the DM of the ability to control the world, I can hardly blame him.

A world where monsters cant surprise or confound you is an unfun world.

This feat is very badly written, and on top of very wonky Stealth rules at that.

That said, your DM could have been more diplomatic. I can totally relate to you feeling you have a confrontational DM.

The best course of action here is you helping the DM out. He's clearly getting tripped up by these absolutes that 5E insist on adding to the game despite that being very unwise.

Tell him that Lucky is really a much better feat for you to take since it doesn't mess with the DMs omnipotence, and offer to switch back.

 

[smbakeresq]

Though you can of course play this however you want, I don't really see any support in the rules for this interpretation.

In the ambush scenario, whatever benefits the ambushers may accrue come from their enemies being surprised which is determined via their Dexterity (Stealth) check against the PCs' passive Perception scores. The PC with the Alert feat is simply immune to having this condition placed upon him or her while he or she is conscious. First surprise is determined, then positioning, then every participant rolls initiative. Once in initiative, the ambushers can take the Ready action, but at that point, the PCs are also in Initiative, even if they can't see or hear their assailants yet. They can't Ready before Initiative.

For the rug, it's resolved the same way: The Dexterity (Stealth) check of the rug is compared to the PCs' passive Perception scores. Anyone whose score it beats is surprised (except for PCs with the Alert feat) and cannot act on their first turn and can't take reactions until their turn.[/QUOTE


No, but its the only reasonable interpretation. If you do it as you say, the players themselves wouldn't be able to set an ambush. More importantly, the simple scenario of "I ready an action to fireball the room as soon as the fighter opens the door becomes impossible, as according to you the combat would not start until the door is opened therefore the wizard could not ready an action." You cant tip you players off to an ambush by saying roll for initiative, that's just dumb. Think about the situation as whole within the framework of the rules, don't try to fit the encounter into the rule set word by word.

For the Rug it specifically says that it is indistinguishable from a normal rug until it moves. It is an actual object, a rug, until it animates. A creature that has advantage on its perception checks due to sight or hearing would just see a rug, a creature with blindsight or tremor sense or anything like that would just see a rug also. The description specifically says those able to detect magic though will see it. That means to me that no player will be able to even try a perception check unless they say they are making sure the rug isn't something else, PC don't get an auto-detect system superior to anything in the game except for detect magic. Otherwise the rug is no challenge and as written in the Monster Manual description

Would-be thieves and careless heroes arrive at the doorsteps of an enemy's abode, eyes and ears alert for traps, only to end their quest prematurely as the rugs beneath their feet animate and smother them to death. A rug of smothering can be made in many different forms, from a finely woven carpet fit for a queen to a coarse mat in a peasant's hovel. Creatures with the ability to sense magic detect the rug's false magical aura.


would almost never occur with any group of reasonable adventurers as somebody would beat the Rugs check (+2 modifier) well before they would get within range of its attack. However, PC who use detect magic get the benefit.

A Human wisdom focused PC with 16 Wis and Observant feat has a passive perception of 18 at level 1, you cant let the group just him walk around the world using his spider sense as an early warning system. If that was true every single NPC group and enemy group in the game would do exactly the same thing, and barring the occasional group using mass invisibility with silence the PC wont be able to spring surprises on the bad guy.

If you watch any of the D&D plays on Twitch like Stream of Annihilation this is effectively what they are doing and how they play it.

 

[iserith]

No, but its the only reasonable interpretation. If you do it as you say, the players themselves wouldn't be able to set an ambush. More importantly, the simple scenario of "I ready an action to fireball the room as soon as the fighter opens the door becomes impossible, as according to you the combat would not start until the door is opened therefore the wizard could not ready an action." You cant tip you players off to an ambush by saying roll for initiative, that's just dumb. Think about the situation as whole within the framework of the rules, don't try to fit the encounter into the rule set word by word.

Are we operating from different meanings of the word "ambush" perhaps? I see it as a surprise assault from attackers who are hiding, and the standard rules allow that to happen. The wizard cannot Ready to Cast a Spell outside of combat. But, if the wizard and the fighter (and whoever else) are trying to be stealthy, then the DM determines surprise before establishing positions and rolling for initiative. If they wizard both beats the monsters' passive Perceptions score with his or her Dexterity (Stealth) check, then the monsters are surprised. The wizard gets to blast the monsters before they can do anything (unless the wizard's initiative roll is lower than the monsters' initiative in which case the monsters could take a reaction if they have one). There's your ambush.

For the Rug it specifically says that it is indistinguishable from a normal rug until it moves. It is an actual object, a rug, until it animates. A creature that has advantage on its perception checks due to sight or hearing would just see a rug, a creature with blindsight or tremor sense or anything like that would just see a rug also. The description specifically says those able to detect magic though will see it. That means to me that no player will be able to even try a perception check unless they say they are making sure the rug isn't something else, PC don't get an auto-detect system superior to anything in the game except for detect magic. Otherwise the rug is no challenge and as written in the Monster Manual description

Would-be thieves and careless heroes arrive at the doorsteps of an enemy's abode, eyes and ears alert for traps, only to end their quest prematurely as the rugs beneath their feet animate and smother them to death. A rug of smothering can be made in many different forms, from a finely woven carpet fit for a queen to a coarse mat in a peasant's hovel. Creatures with the ability to sense magic detect the rug's false magical aura.


would almost never occur with any group of reasonable adventurers as somebody would beat the Rugs check (+2 modifier) well before they would get within range of its attack. However, PC who use detect magic get the benefit.

False Appearance allows for the rug to remain in plain sight and not necessarily be obvious as a threat, meaning that the PCs may be on top of it before it attacks. I think it would be reasonable for the DM to grant advantage to the rug's Dexterity (Stealth) check to determine surprise as well. After all, "The DM can also decide that circumstances influence a roll in one direction or another and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a result." But even without that, this means that the DM determines surprise, establishes positions, and calls for initiative. The rug might surprise one or more PCs or it might not. It might get to take action before they do or it might not.

A Human wisdom focused PC with 16 Wis and Observant feat has a passive perception of 18 at level 1, you cant let the group just him walk around the world using his spider sense as an early warning system. If that was true every single NPC group and enemy group in the game would do exactly the same thing, and barring the occasional group using mass invisibility with silence the PC wont be able to spring surprises on the bad guy.

If you watch any of the D&D plays on Twitch like Stream of Annihilation this is effectively what they are doing and how they play it.

First, let's not forget that Feats are optional rules. Nobody is forcing anyone to use them, except perhaps AL. Second, I've addressed how to handle passive Perception, even with Observant PCs, right here. I encourage you to read that post. Under that interpretation which takes into account the rules for activities while traveling (which includes pace in minutes and feet, not just hours and miles), the Observant PC can only devote his or her attention to one task at a time unless he or she is a ranger in favored terrain. That means the Observant PC is probably not going to be surprised and, if in the front rank, will notice the traps; however, he or she will not be able to perform any other task that distracts from Keeping Watch. This might even include, at the DM's discretion, noticing secret doors. Observant makes you really good at only one thing at a time, not all the things.

As for "every single NPC group and enemy group" doing the same thing, they do what the DM says they do for whatever reason the DM says they do it, so if you're a DM and you don't want NPCs or monsters with high passive Perception scores then... don't do that?

 

[smbakeresq]

I would never use perception the way you do. Every player would move a small distance, stop, Observe, move small distance, stop Observe. It would drag the game too much. I do like the idea, but every intelligent creature in the world would do the same thing.

Nothing in any ruleset anyway require that PC be informed that you are in Initiative and thus Combat, that destroys any element of surprise. If a enemy is hiding he is in combat, taking the hide action, and doing so over and over again waiting for the trigger. His initiative is set, its right before the PC who activates the trigger. Otherwise the PC can ruin an ambush just getting lucky on initiative, that's not the intent of the rules. An invisible, hidden behind total cover creature who rolled a 1 for initiative wont get the drop on anyone, the minute you call for initiative every PC knows something is there and all the PC will start taking actions to detect something that they should have no idea is there unless you say "you cant possibly detect anything so you cant take any actions" then makes the table feel screwed.

IMO, Passive Perception is misused by players and DMS alike. Here is the PHB example:

Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat. The DM might decide that a threat can be noticed only by characters in a particular rank.



You cant ask your players their passive perception scores at the table, you give the game away then. You need to know them before the session starts, and then unless the PC tell you different like "We are moving slower to be aware of threats" they get no perception check to notice things, you only get your passive and only for the PC's in the right spots like in the example above. From Reddit user Ironforged:

Passive scores are a DM tool to use in two different situations.
The character is doing something over and over again repeatedly and you want to speed up play. Example, they are walking cautiously down a dungeon corridor on the lookout for traps and other dangers. You as the DM don't want to slow the game down by having them roll every ten or twenty feet, so you just use passive perception and passive investigation.
The character has a chance of doing something, but the act of rolling gives the player too much information so you want to test against their passive score so no roll is made. Example, when a group of monsters is about to ambush the party and surprise them, or when the succubus is disguise and blatantly lying to them, so you make the stealth and deception checks against passive perception and passive insight.
Those are the only two different ways covered in the PHB that passive scores are used.
The word "passive" has nothing to do with situation 1 at all but yet that is what they decided to call it, I think it wasn't the best term.
Addressing your concern, I don't ever have them roll if I used their passive score, it is either something I use to speed up play or to keep information from them, passive scores are not a safety net.


Also, passive perception still requires something for you to perceive. A silent creature hiding behind total cover that has no scent to me means no perception check will ever reveal them. That's what blind sight, tremor sense, etc are for.