Splitting cleric's subclass into domain and archetype

[cbwjm]

The cleric is a fine class but I don't like that the cleric's of each domain are the same. I want to see cleric's of light, some of whom are crusaders leading the faithful on military campaigns while others are mystics learned in the mysteries of their faith. To do this, I have made some changes to the base cleric class, shuffled around some domain abilities while removing others to make room for archetype features (currently the aforementioned crusader and mystic). I'm also thinking of additional archetypes for a shaman and a runecrafter but am currently focusing on crusader and mystic.

Changes to the Cleric
Some of the basic changes for the cleric are listed below. Unless otherwise noted, the cleric still gains the level 1 abilities and the channel divinity power at level 2. With these changes, the domain grants abilities at levels 1, 2, 8, and 17.

Level 1
Remove any bonus weapon/armour proficiencies gained from the domain. These are now reflected by the archetype.
Remove medium armour and shield proficiency. These are now reflected by the archetype.

Level 6
The level 6 domain ability is now moved to level 8.

Level 8
The level 8 domain ability (divine strike or potent spellcasting) is removed.

The Cleric Archetypes
At levels 3, 6, and 14, the cleric gains an archetype feature. Archetype features are still being decided, but what I currently have are listed below.

Crusader
Level 3
Gain martial weapon proficiency.
Gain medium armour and shield proficiency.

Level 6
Extra Attack

Level 14
Divine Strike

• +1d8 when you strike with a weapon attack.
• Damage dependent on Divine Domain, default is radiant, otherwise base the the damage off the current divine strike ability of the domains.

Mystic
Level 3
You gain expertise in religion.
Add an additional cleric cantrip.
Divine Meditation (Arcane Recovery).*
Level 6
Potent Spellcasting

• Wisdom modifier to cantrip damage.

Level 14
Expanded Domain

• You gain an additional spell of spell levels 6th to 9th added to your domain list. When you gain access to these spells, they are always prepared.

Life Expanded Domain Spells
6th level: Heal
7th level: Divine Word
8th level: Holy Aura
9th level: Mass Heal

*Another idea I had was domain spell slots. The cleric gains a number of points equal to their Wisdom modifier which can be traded 1 for 1 for spell slots to cast a domain spell. So a 3rd cleric-mystic of life with 16 Wisdom could create 3 1st level spell slots to cast cure wounds or 1 1st and 1 2nd level spell slot to cast cure wounds and spiritual weapon. This would provide a boost of fewer spell slots than an ability like arcane recovery, but would provide a boost of additional spell slots instantly without having to wait for a short rest. Tying it to domain spells only also brings in the concept of the mystic learning deeper mysteries of their faith.

 

[Li Shenron]

Why don't you keep it simpler, and just separate domain spells from all other abilities?

Let a Cleric choose the domain (i.e. set of domain spells) and an archetype (i.e. a set of all other previous domain abilities) independently.

 

[Leatherhead]

The cleric is a fine class...

Personally, I think it's a nearly vestigial mishmash of concepts that was created as a rules patch. A class that somehow perpetuated it's existence largely to the failures of other subsystems (namely, the healing and recovery subsystems), topped off with a semi-toxic social contract that causes other players to think you are just there to play as a healbot for them. And a class that can be largely conceptually replaced by the Paladin, Warlock, and by select sublasses (particularly of the Barbarian or Sorcerer flavor). But if you are gung-ho on keeping it, lets give it a go.

I want to see cleric's of light, some of whom are crusaders leading the faithful on military campaigns while others are mystics learned in the mysteries of their faith.

Largely, I think gods having multiple domains are intended to fill this niche, but that doesn't work if you aren't using gods. Also, the Warlock is chopped up like this, so why not?

I'm also thinking of additional archetypes for a shaman and a runecrafter but am currently focusing on crusader and mystic.

Shaman being a Cleric who channels spirits instead of fighting for themselves? That's a nifty flavor. Do you intend to be a "pet" style class, or more of a "shapeshifter" style (where the Cleric's stats change depending on the spirit that is possessing them, kinda like a Druid)?
Though I have to wonder, where does the traditional Trickery Domain fall into this divide?

Changes to the Cleric

I've been watching the Happy Fun Hour as of late. I highly recommend it. Mearls brings up how and why they made the classes the way that they are, as well as walking you though the motions of making your own subclasses.

One thing he brings up all the time (while talking about mechanics they are never going to use again): They don't want you to dramatically change your playstyle when you level up. That means if you are going to be a melee frontliner, they want you to have a weapon in your hand and armor on your back at level 1. Mind you, there are a few classes that don't do this, but they are more or less mistakes that would be changed if we were to get a 3.5 or Essentials style half-edition revision.

And I have to kinda agree with him on this. I don't see how your Crusader is supposed to thrive in melee combat until level 3, unless they cheese their Dex, maybe. Just what are you doing for those (highly deadly) levels?

Though I do like how they get Extra Attack, and how Divine Strike works with bows.

 

[ClaytonCross]

I don't mind this idea its kind of like the Warlock Patron / Pact / Invocation format which makes them easier to "after market edit" but I expect instead of re-inventing the wheel I find homebrew is better as a supplement. With that in mind I think you would be better suited modeling the 5th edition version after the totem Barbarian, where you make subclass like "The Domain of Faithful" and allow them to select any patron then they get domain features based on the domains available from their diety that forks into paths Crusader and Mystic. All Deities have 1 or 2 domain as far as I know, so if you make a Deity bonus chart that has a minor and major Domain option you could let anyone who serves a Deity with two domains take the two minor domain abilities for the domains available through their deity or 1 major domain option focusing on one aspect of the deity they serve. I think that makes deity selection more interesting an option then choose a "path of service" of mystic or crusader (Alternate names for consideration of Priest (instead of mystic since that is the name of another class wizards of the coast has been working on) and/or Militant Missionary (instead of crusader since that has already be listed as a fighter and paladin subclass or its own class and you might get more individual traction with your idea if people don't confuse it with other attempts. Just a consideration not a criticism.)

That's my 2 cents for what its worth. Best of luck on your idea though. It has possibilities, it just seems like an intriguing starting point, not a finishing product, in my opinion.

 

[cbwjm]

Why don't you keep it simpler, and just separate domain spells from all other abilities?

Let a Cleric choose the domain (i.e. set of domain spells) and an archetype (i.e. a set of all other previous domain abilities) independently.

It's a thought and I have done something similar in the past with customisation of domains (essentially swapping weapon/armour proficiency and divine strike with bonus cantrips and potent spellcasting), however, I still want many of the domain abilities to remain intact to provide the feel for the domain, while also creating a very different feel for the play style.

 

[cbwjm]

Personally, I think it's a nearly vestigial mishmash of concepts that was created as a rules patch. A class that somehow perpetuated it's existence largely to the failures of other subsystems (namely, the healing and recovery subsystems), topped off with a semi-toxic social contract that causes other players to think you are just there to play as a healbot for them. And a class that can be largely conceptually replaced by the Paladin, Warlock, and by select sublasses (particularly of the Barbarian or Sorcerer flavor). But if you are gung-ho on keeping it, lets give it a go.



Largely, I think gods having multiple domains are intended to fill this niche, but that doesn't work if you aren't using gods. Also, the Warlock is chopped up like this, so why not?


Shaman being a Cleric who channels spirits instead of fighting for themselves? That's a nifty flavor. Do you intend to be a "pet" style class, or more of a "shapeshifter" style (where the Cleric's stats change depending on the spirit that is possessing them, kinda like a Druid)?
Though I have to wonder, where does the traditional Trickery Domain fall into this divide?

I probably could have provided more of a description in that I think the cleric is a fine class as it is fairly well balanced and I hear very little in the way of complaints or claims of them being overpowered.

I have done the multiple domains for religions in the past with each domain being a different branch of the priesthood. I have also altered domains to change them from a caster to a melee focused cleric, but I just want something a little more. For the shaman, I really want there to be some kind of summon ability which calls on spirits to aid them, but I don't quite know how to do this yet.

I have no idea how trickery falls into this just yet, the war domain might also be slightly problematic for a mystic since they aren't likely to want to be in the midst of combat. This might lead to me dropping some additional abilities from the domain or changing the way the war cleric domain works at level 1. Of course, it might just be that certain domains tend towards certain archetypes with others still represented, but less so.

I've been watching the Happy Fun Hour as of late. I highly recommend it. Mearls brings up how and why they made the classes the way that they are, as well as walking you though the motions of making your own subclasses.

One thing he brings up all the time (while talking about mechanics they are never going to use again): They don't want you to dramatically change your playstyle when you level up. That means if you are going to be a melee frontliner, they want you to have a weapon in your hand and armor on your back at level 1. Mind you, there are a few classes that don't do this, but they are more or less mistakes that would be changed if we were to get a 3.5 or Essentials style half-edition revision.

And I have to kinda agree with him on this. I don't see how your Crusader is supposed to thrive in melee combat until level 3, unless they cheese their Dex, maybe. Just what are you doing for those (highly deadly) levels?

Though I do like how they get Extra Attack, and how Divine Strike works with bows.

I do actually keep up with the happy fun hour, though I haven't finished the mind mage video and I think the next video will be out tomorrow(?) so I'm a little behind. I think I was considering the crusader to be for the cleric what the college of valour is for the bard. However, a key difference is that the bard is likely focusing on dexterity whereas the cleric might not be. Coupled with the fact that the cleric is only proficient in simple weapons means that the potential crusader would likely be focused more on strength as their melee attack stat. It's a good point, and it might be worth returning medium armour and shields to clerics and giving the crusader heavy armour proficiency.

Ideally, the archetype would have been granted at level 1 but I think granting the domain and the archetype at that level might be overkill. Although I could just shift some domain powers to level 2, and the domains channel divinity power to level 3 so that level 2 isn't so loaded.

 

[cbwjm]

I don't mind this idea its kind of like the Warlock Patron / Pact / Invocation format which makes them easier to "after market edit" but I expect instead of re-inventing the wheel I find homebrew is better as a supplement. With that in mind I think you would be better suited modeling the 5th edition version after the totem Barbarian, where you make subclass like "The Domain of Faithful" and allow them to select any patron then they get domain features based on the domains available from their diety that forks into paths Crusader and Mystic. All Deities have 1 or 2 domain as far as I know, so if you make a Deity bonus chart that has a minor and major Domain option you could let anyone who serves a Deity with two domains take the two minor domain abilities for the domains available through their deity or 1 major domain option focusing on one aspect of the deity they serve. I think that makes deity selection more interesting an option then choose a "path of service" of mystic or crusader (Alternate names for consideration of Priest (instead of mystic since that is the name of another class wizards of the coast has been working on) and/or Militant Missionary (instead of crusader since that has already be listed as a fighter and paladin subclass or its own class and you might get more individual traction with your idea if people don't confuse it with other attempts. Just a consideration not a criticism.)

That's my 2 cents for what its worth. Best of luck on your idea though. It has possibilities, it just seems like an intriguing starting point, not a finishing product, in my opinion.

If you have time, could you elaborate on your idea? It sounds like it might be an interesting concept but I'm not quite getting it.

I chose crusader and mystic mainly because I'd been reading the 2e forgotten realms god book which had the two classes written up in the appendix. I'm using them as placeholders at the moment, I do like the sound of crusader though mystic could do with a change.

This is very much a starting point, I've only really been looking at this for a couple of days, I think I only started writing this up on Monday when I was in a cafe getting caffeinated before work, so I'm currently working through some initial ideas but thought I'd post for any comments. Already, I need to rethink the level that the archetype comes in after reading Leatherhead's comments.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Martial weapon proficiency and Extra attack seems to be stepping on the Paladin and War domain cleric excessively. I'd suggest giving Heavy armour proficiency, and a more defensive benefit instead.

 

[CapnZapp]

I think there is nothing wrong with offering the Cleric the option to abstain from weapons and armor.

Since the Cleric is a full caster, however, letting go of weapon proficiencies show be assigned a low value. I'd recommend no compensation at all, actually. All the "mystic cleric" gains is the compensation for medium armor proficiency. A divine Arcane Recovery is perhaps adequate.

 

[ClaytonCross]

If you have time, could you elaborate on your idea? It sounds like it might be an interesting concept but I'm not quite getting it.

I chose crusader and mystic mainly because I'd been reading the 2e forgotten realms god book which had the two classes written up in the appendix. I'm using them as placeholders at the moment, I do like the sound of crusader though mystic could do with a change.

This is very much a starting point, I've only really been looking at this for a couple of days, I think I only started writing this up on Monday when I was in a cafe getting caffeinated before work, so I'm currently working through some initial ideas but thought I'd post for any comments. Already, I need to rethink the level that the archetype comes in after reading Leatherhead's comments.

Sure I can try to explain better.

1. Make your changes under a "Domain of the Faithful" (place holder, free to pick as you want)

-Why? This leaves the rest of the clerics intact so your changes only impact the subclass and another cleric at the same table can play normally without any conflict as a result your homebrew can be more widely excepted as an optional addition instead of risking being seen as an invader. Sure, you can have two characters playing at the table with different rules or maybe only one cleric and no issue but I think in general you will get less push back.

2. Like the totem barbarian sub class list all the domains and give each a minor and major ability. When a player chooses the "Domain of the Faithful" they select any deity and can choose ether to take 2 related minor domain abilities or one Related Major domain ability which will continue consistently down the "Domain of the Faithful".

Example: If the pick Thor they can chose the "Domain of the Faithful" major feature of Tempest ... or ... "Domain of the Faithful" major feature of War ... or "Domain of the Faithful" minor features of Tempest War.

- Why? This allows a unique blend and more accurate "portrait" of each deity because the followers of the deity can respect one side and not the other or both. Also, it allows you to make micro adjustment to each domain type similar to how warlock patrons very but its way more open to deity choices because you are not tying the abilities to the deity but to a specific deity but the domains the deity allows so any new deity, player made or Wizards of the cost made will automatically work unless they add a new domain. Then you just add one major and one minor ability option for that new domain and your cover all new deities that use it.

3. Add "Path of the mystic" and "Path of the Crusader" as class choices at level 3 the way warlocks add Pact of the Blade, Pact of the Chain, and Pact of the Tome to define how you play the class.

- Why? This allows variation in Mystic and Crusader under the same patron the way you wanted and you can fix one Path without breaking the other.

Example: (I am just going to brought from the book, I recommend you make your own taking the idea of the abilities instead of directly copying them)
Edit, I did make up Channel Divinity: Destructive Strike just mixing the name of the channel Divinities as a stand in for a Mystic specific ability

Player choices Cleric "Domain of the Faithful" --> Thor --> Tempest Major (Tempest spells & Wrath of the Storm) --> Mystic (Channel Divinity: Destructive Strike)
Player choices Cleric "Domain of the Faithful" --> Thor --> Tempest Major (Tempest spells & Wrath of the Storm) --> Crusader (proficiency with martial weapons and heavy armor)
Player choices Cleric "Domain of the Faithful" --> Thor --> War Major (War spells & War Prist) --> Mystic (Channel Divinity: Destructive Strike)
Player choices Cleric "Domain of the Faithful" --> Thor --> War Major (War spells & War Prist) --> Crusader (proficiency with martial weapons and heavy armor)
Player choices Cleric "Domain of the Faithful" --> Thor --> Tempest Minor & War Minor (Tempest spells & War spells) --> Mystic (Channel Divinity: Destructive Strike)
Player choices Cleric "Domain of the Faithful" --> Thor --> Tempest Minor & War Minor (Tempest spells & War spells) --> Crusader (proficiency with martial weapons and heavy armor)

Any way you would need to figure out what you want for the major and for the minor abilities, I actually use them like two minor abilities above to show scale and that would work too but you could make more powerful single abilities for the solo domains and weaker abilities that reflect the same intent for the combination of 2 domains. I think there are 13 domains so you make/alter 13 major and 13 minor and you should be able to accommodate any deity.

I hope this clears up the the thought process for you. Best of luck.