The economics of Continual flame

[Oofta]

I've got to agree that CF would have major worldwide social impacts. Impacts that generally would cause a disconnect in how most fantasy worlds are portrayed. Doesn't mean we shouldn't consider such changes in our worlds, just that in general we don't. The other thing, we generally portray our fantasy worlds in a relatively stagnant social and technological aspect.

Look at canon for the various worlds, how much "technology" or social progression has actually happened? FR, GH, DL? Nope, Eberron is the only one that has any type of historical technological advancement. Why doesn't the Realms have magical plows equivalent to a real world John Deere? I mean if they farmers have been farming and their has been magic for 10k years, why not? Even if such a thing costs 100,000 GP, you can justify it the same way you can CF.

Sure, the first step might be a safe and reliable light source, but the next might be food preservation. Then sanitation. At that point life spans increase and birth rates go up followed by individual productivity doubles. Now you have 20% of the population involved in food production instead of the medieval 95+%.

All that extra time and resources... lots of that is going to go into law enforcement, so that the tax payers are safe. And then lots of that is going to go into a military, so that commerce is safe. And with all that excess population, you are going to have to settle all those wild lands. Which means the military is going to clear out all those "old dungeons" and adventuring sites. And since soldiers don't like to die, after a thousand years, soldiers are not going to be using longswords and wearing chainmail. And why would adventurers use such archaic and inferior devices?

Look, trying to guess the impacts of technology on a fantasy world means that you can suppose just about anything. Will every peasant house having a CF break your game? Nope. But it's just one more disconnect in our fantasy. There are plenty already. Use the ones you want, ignore the ones you don't.

To a certain degree I agree that you have a point. However, it's a huge leap to go from continual flame being somewhat common to magical John Deere tractors. There could be a significant level of magic but most of it would simply be conveniences and have only subtle impacts on society. You have priests and druids that get real results when they bless the fields, but it still takes manual labor to plant, tend and harvest. People can't suddenly get rid of the ox and plow.

You can have magic without having modern levels of techno-magic in an Ebberon-like world. Yes, people have light at night. It's nice. Magic would make life marginally easier and decrease child mortality, but it only changes the fabric of society as much or as little as makes sense for your world.

 

[5ekyu]

To a certain degree I agree that you have a point. However, it's a huge leap to go from continual flame being somewhat common to magical John Deere tractors. There could be a significant level of magic but most of it would simply be conveniences and have only subtle impacts on society. You have priests and druids that get real results when they bless the fields, but it still takes manual labor to plant, tend and harvest. People can't suddenly get rid of the ox and plow.

You can have magic without having modern levels of techno-magic in an Ebberon-like world. Yes, people have light at night. It's nice. Magic would make life marginally easier and decrease child mortality, but it only changes the fabric of society as much or as little as makes sense for your world.

Also, a specific thing about CF vs other effects is that Cf is one of the few long lasting low level one shot and forever spells.

When you look at things like making food and that kind of stuff or other such effects you rapidly get into a populations vs spellcasters ratio thing which makes it likely some local village can benefit from having a pet spellcaster but not likely you get bigger than than or routine just due to the need for recasting spells over and over.

Sure a moderate level druid might in the middle of f blight or bad winter set himself to devoting many spell slots to goodberry a village but that wont be sustainable over long time and larger areas.

but with Cf its one of the few extremely long lasting effects that also comes at low levels and so the gradual expansion is huge.

i mean imagine if every month on their biggest holy day the local priest of light gifted one CF item to the village. Now imagine that has been going on for 100 years at every shrine, temple of cloister. if they made a point of gifting these to the less fortunate who could not afford but charge... accepted donations from more wealthy patrons for others... thats a growing crapload of these items into play.

Course, disciples of darkness might well be moving around dispelling them or maybe making a point on their high holy day of punishing someone for using them.

Fact is that might be one of the better "within the world" reasons for these to be limited to major cities or other well defended places - cults, creatures and other threats which are drawn to them with ill intent. farmer john's log cabin being lit up by a Cf he won in a raffle is fine, until certain shadowy figures show up at night to express their displeasure.

 

[Oofta]

Also, a specific thing about CF vs other effects is that Cf is one of the few long lasting low level one shot and forever spells.

When you look at things like making food and that kind of stuff or other such effects you rapidly get into a populations vs spellcasters ratio thing which makes it likely some local village can benefit from having a pet spellcaster but not likely you get bigger than than or routine just due to the need for recasting spells over and over.

Sure a moderate level druid might in the middle of f blight or bad winter set himself to devoting many spell slots to goodberry a village but that wont be sustainable over long time and larger areas.

but with Cf its one of the few extremely long lasting effects that also comes at low levels and so the gradual expansion is huge.

i mean imagine if every month on their biggest holy day the local priest of light gifted one CF item to the village. Now imagine that has been going on for 100 years at every shrine, temple of cloister. if they made a point of gifting these to the less fortunate who could not afford but charge... accepted donations from more wealthy patrons for others... thats a growing crapload of these items into play.

Course, disciples of darkness might well be moving around dispelling them or maybe making a point on their high holy day of punishing someone for using them.

Fact is that might be one of the better "within the world" reasons for these to be limited to major cities or other well defended places - cults, creatures and other threats which are drawn to them with ill intent. farmer john's log cabin being lit up by a Cf he won in a raffle is fine, until certain shadowy figures show up at night to express their displeasure.

Yep. Animated Object for example is a fifth level spell that lasts for a whopping minute. So animating that plow isn't going to be very efficient.

I've actually had some games surrounding this question in the past. The gnomish inventor tries to make a more efficient threshing machine and it actually works for a while. But then there's an accident and a young woman gets injured by it when the moon is waning and the next thing you know they've accidentally done a ritual of dark magic requiring the blood of a virgin. The threshing machine goes berserk and starts harvesting people. Maybe I've just read too many Stephen King short stories.

I just don't see a reason to go from magic has no impact on society at all to a steam-punk type world powered by magic. Given that the majority of PC classes and archetypes are magic users or supernaturally powerful, it seems like the default assumption that magic permeates the world.

If practically every night-time light source in a campaign world was continual-flame based, how much difference would it really make? People wouldn't need as many candles. Whales would not be hunted to near extinction for their blubber. What else would change?

 

[Oofta]

Just to follow up my previous post, let's say your standard pseudo-medievel world has and pretty much has always had freely available magical light. Practically all light sources are continual flame. Assume it's always been this way and there never was a candle-makers union.

What would the impact be? No extrapolation of more advanced magic, no other magical machinery. Just light. What changes?

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[abirdcall]

I just don't see a reason to go from magic has no impact on society at all to a steam-punk type world powered by magic. Given that the majority of PC classes and archetypes are magic users or supernaturally powerful, it seems like the default assumption that magic permeates the world.

How many PCs are there in the world?

For most worlds it would be 4-5. In more of an old-school campaign it would be 15-20.

That isn't a lot for an entire world. PCs also have better things to do.

 

[Oofta]

.....


Well, assuming for a second that you don't have common public lighting (think streetlamps), then the revolution you would have simply by having available indoor lighting is immense.

Transformative, even.

This has been pretty well-detailed in our own history, and is why so much effort was put into it over time, and also why-

1. You associate Edison with the electric light; and

2. The "generic" image for invention is a light bulb.

It's kind of hard to overstate. There are books and stuff.

(Sure, antibiotics and modern sewage system are also cool)

Why? I mean this seriously. Light is nice, but how transformative is it? Electricity brought with it a whole host of changes made possible by electric motors, and certainly it was better than the gas lights they had. But did it really make that much difference?

Harnessing steam and later petroleum based fuels in engines is what transformed society from agrarian to industrial, not light.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Oofta]

How many PCs are there in the world?

For most worlds it would be 4-5. In more of an old-school campaign it would be 15-20.

That isn't a lot for an entire world. PCs also have better things to do.

My point is that when PCs do become adventurers they usually follow a path of magic. Besides, how many adventures revolve around cults enacting some ritual or other. Magic is extremely common in most published adventures. Normally it's just as a counter to PC magic, but to me it doesn't make much sense that all these people spring out of nowhere.

 

[Oofta]

Seriously? When was the last time you were indoors and had to rely on a torch for illumination?

Off the top of my head-

Productivity- expands the useful hours of work. Greatly.

Building design- the nature and shape of buildings tended to be limited due to the need for (natural) light during the day; no longer the case.

Productivity in multiple fields- mining, for example, became much safer and more productive with electric light.

Leisure- Night time leisure activities were made possible largely through electric light and, more importantly, more affordable.


This is before getting into the idea that "ever lasting free light" (or, in this case, EVER LASTING FREE ENERGY/FLAME) might change things up.


It is easy to ignore how much something has changed when you are habituated to it.

Does it expand productivity all that much? Without engines, you're still an agrarian society. Roughly 75% of the people are growing food for a living. So light only makes a big difference for about 25% of the people. Even then, how much does productivity increase? It's not like people were wandering around blind before Edison.

I agree there would be changes and improvements. But I think it's more on the lines of a 10-20% percent increase in productivity. A noticeable increase but not a monumental one and not one that would change the fabric of society.

I think you're conflating light with the industrial revolution. The latter preceded the former by a century or so.