The economics of Continual flame

[5ekyu]

Because there is no such thing as an off-the-shelf price in a pseudo-medieval economy. Even our modern economy isn’t as predictable as following the D&D rules for income and economics.

I find this sort of topic quite interesting because it gives me the opportunity to learn something.

So here’s some research on actual medieval prices for real, mundane things:

https://www.economics.utoronto.ca/munro5/SPICES1.htm

http://faculty.goucher.edu/eng240/medieval_prices.html

Check out the fluctuation in wheat prices:
http://www.medievalcoinage.com/prices/medievalprices.htm

Of course, the records are extremely sparse. But imagine what magic would cost, and how much it would fluctuate in such a world.

Yes, a big aspect was how availability played a role. Things easily made in one spot might be quite cheap while even modest metal good might be extremely pricey if no local craftsman.

Few games try and deal with that in detail. Most of they deal with it at all use merchant rolls for profits.

The exceptions I have seen myself were for Traveller type games where world types created trade codes and rates with an attempt at logic or at least consistrncy.

 

[5ekyu]

Uh-huh. This goes in the same bucket as the coffeelock, a build based on the idea that PCs can go without sleep forever because the book lists no rules penalty for doing so.

Sometime I'd be interested to play in Rules Lawyer Land. I'd send the fighter to buy one copper piece worth of ruby dust. Then I'd buy one single grain from the fighter for 50 gp, and cast continual flame with it. Then I'd sell the resulting magic torch to the fighter for 50 gp (hey, it's fair market value!) and repeat. Of course, that's just a warm-up act. The main event is when the cleric learns resurrection.

Huh?

How you get from paying the book amount for spell components to coffeelock is beyond me. But to each their own... logic, I guess.

How you and your gm decided you get your character set market price for ruby dust thrmselves is between you and them but if that works for your game, that's cool. It's not how I have ever seen it work. But hey, different strokes. Long as it makes your game fun, that's cool.

As for coffeelick, I thought that was laid to rest even for rulsies with sleep penalties in Xanathars but I could be wrong. It wasn't anything I allowed anyway so I didn't give that much attention.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Yes, a big aspect was how availability played a role. Things easily made in one spot might be quite cheap while even modest metal good might be extremely pricey if no local craftsman.

Few games try and deal with that in detail. Most of they deal with it at all use merchant rolls for profits.

The exceptions I have seen myself were for Traveller type games where world types created trade codes and rates with an attempt at logic or at least consistrncy.

Agreed. But it’s not so much to bring such an economy to the game as it is to show how extrapolating the prices in the rulebooks to a whole economy is futile. They act as a convenient shorthand to what prices are for the PCs now, rather than a reflection of the global economy, and really shouldn’t be used for that purpose.

 

[5ekyu]

Chuckling just a few moments ago when watching the DND Beyond interview with the author about Ebberon - at the parts about how Ebberon is "magic wide" as magic being integrated into everyday life and the example given was "cities lit with continual flames" and an image of little pyramid-like glass lights set in the sidewalks.

perhaps they consulted with the fantasyeconomic experts on this thread... but perhaps not. No telling how expensive rubies are in Ebberon.

oh wait. i just bought it so... maybe there is...

chuckle

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Chuckling just a few moments ago when watching the DND Beyond interview with the author about Ebberon - at the parts about how Ebberon is "magic wide" as magic being integrated into everyday life and the example given was "cities lit with continual flames" and an image of little pyramid-like glass lights set in the sidewalks.

perhaps they consulted with the fantasyeconomic experts on this thread... but perhaps not. No telling how expensive rubies are in Ebberon.

oh wait. i just bought it so... maybe there is...

chuckle

It also shows the benefit of the setting having its own setting specific rules, like in 2e. But I doubt that’s coming back...

Not that familiar with Eberron so I’m not sure how that really fits in the original edition. It always seemed like a magical steampunk sort of idea, if a D&D world evolved to the industrial revolution using magic instead of science.

 

[Horwath]

Chuckling just a few moments ago when watching the DND Beyond interview with the author about Ebberon - at the parts about how Ebberon is "magic wide" as magic being integrated into everyday life and the example given was "cities lit with continual flames" and an image of little pyramid-like glass lights set in the sidewalks.

perhaps they consulted with the fantasyeconomic experts on this thread... but perhaps not. No telling how expensive rubies are in Ebberon.

oh wait. i just bought it so... maybe there is...

chuckle

Faerun is also high magic.

I would say that Silverymoon is also lit with CF on all major streets, if not all of them.

Same would go for Evereska, center of Waterdeep etc...

 

[5ekyu]

Faerun is also high magic.

I would say that Silverymoon is also lit with CF on all major streets, if not all of them.

Same would go for Evereska, center of Waterdeep etc...

yup

interting to me was the author drawing a difference between high magic and wide magic.

ebberon wide magic was apparently intended to be magic common in everyday hands - driving "advancement" in place of technology.

vs

high magic which can be covered with a few areas or specials with lots of powerful magic but not necessarily that different in smaller villages etc.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

yup

interting to me was the author drawing a difference between high magic and wide magic.

ebberon wide magic was apparently intended to be magic common in everyday hands - driving "advancement" in place of technology.

vs

high magic which can be covered with a few areas or specials with lots of powerful magic but not necessarily that different in smaller villages etc.

That’s a good distinction, actually. And I agree, in the Realms, the cities will likely have a higher level of magic and things like continual light (and permanent faerie fire). But it’s still limited. Waterdeep has a guild of lamplighters who light the lamps of the city. Despite the Realms being high magic, Greenwood always kept it grounded in the mundane. The nobles of course have coin to melt and would do so freely. And it would be a status symbol.
Silverymoon and really any city heavily associated with elves would be more magically inclined.

Again, at least in the Realms, this is done in part to differentiate between the mundane normal lives and the wondrous things and adventures that lie in wait. Of course, that approach has largely been lost over the years...

 

[Oofta]

Because there is no such thing as an off-the-shelf price in a pseudo-medieval economy. Even our modern economy isn’t as predictable as following the D&D rules for income and economics.

I find this sort of topic quite interesting because it gives me the opportunity to learn something.

So here’s some research on actual medieval prices for real, mundane things:

https://www.economics.utoronto.ca/munro5/SPICES1.htm

http://faculty.goucher.edu/eng240/medieval_prices.html

Check out the fluctuation in wheat prices:
http://www.medievalcoinage.com/prices/medievalprices.htm

Of course, the records are extremely sparse. But imagine what magic would cost, and how much it would fluctuate in such a world.

Which is interesting, but also kind of irrelevant. I see your point. Saying any component requires N GP of any good doesn't make a lot of sense because ruby dust right next to the place where they mine and cut rubies is going to be significantly cheaper than ruby dust half way across the world.

But in the world of D&D I know that as a trade good wheat costs 1 CP per pound of wheat because that's what the book says it's worth in the Trade Good Table. That's not at all realistic, but neither is a lot of D&D. It's just close enough to make the game playable. Much like we also know how much a common laborer makes per day, or how much room and board is going to cost.

So when evaluating how much ruby dust you need, you probably need N ounces of the stuff which at the snapshot time and place of D&D price scale comes out to 50 GP worth. Then again it doesn't make a lot of sense because ruby dust would actually be a byproduct of producing rubies and should be worthless leftover that gets tossed aside. Unless there was demand for the stuff of course. Because people were, oh, I don't know, using it as a component for continual flame all the time.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Which is interesting, but also kind of irrelevant. I see your point. Saying any component requires N GP of any good doesn't make a lot of sense because ruby dust right next to the place where they mine and cut rubies is going to be significantly cheaper than ruby dust half way across the world.

But in the world of D&D I know that as a trade good wheat costs 1 CP per pound of wheat because that's what the book says it's worth in the Trade Good Table. That's not at all realistic, but neither is a lot of D&D. It's just close enough to make the game playable. Much like we also know how much a common laborer makes per day, or how much room and board is going to cost.

So when evaluating how much ruby dust you need, you probably need N ounces of the stuff which at the snapshot time and place of D&D price scale comes out to 50 GP worth. Then again it doesn't make a lot of sense because ruby dust would actually be a byproduct of producing rubies and should be worthless leftover that gets tossed aside. Unless there was demand for the stuff of course. Because people were, oh, I don't know, using it as a component for continual flame all the time.

As I clarified in another post, I don’t expect folks to play out their economies in that way. Just that the short cut to make it playable doesn’t scale out to measure the economy of the world over time.

I also don’t expect there’s a particularly booming business cutting rubies, since they can’t afford the dust anyway. In which case some of the prove might be because the ones controlling the mining and cutting of rubies are keeping the dust for their own use in continual light spells, as wealthy people and governments might do.