“Who started it?” Initiative order

[abirdcall]

I rule it:

The PC initiating the incident goes first, then everyone rolls initiative for the surprise round. The initiator does not get another action until the surprise round is finished.

There are no surprise rounds in 5e.

Surprise only occurs when a character has no awareness of the threat.

For example: If enemy creatures are sneaking up on the PCs then check their stealth against each of the PC's passive perception. Each PC who has lower PP than the monster's stealth is surprised. Those who meet or exceed are not.

If 2 parties are talking to each other then they are aware of each other.


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I had no idea how many people houseruled the initiative system to allow auto-successes. To me it completely defeats the purpose as a method of adjudicating the transition from time keeping in minutes to seconds.

 

[Raunalyn]

There are no surprise rounds in 5e.

Surprise only occurs when a character has no awareness of the threat.

For example: If enemy creatures are sneaking up on the PCs then check their stealth against each of the PC's passive perception. Each PC who has lower PP than the monster's stealth is surprised. Those who meet or exceed are not.

If 2 parties are talking to each other then they are aware of each other.


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I had no idea how many people houseruled the initiative system to allow auto-successes. To me it completely defeats the purpose as a method of adjudicating the transition from time keeping in minutes to seconds.

Uh...yes there are.

If a party attacks a group unaware, they get to take a full round of actions...a surprise round...before the enemy does (page 189 of the PHB). This is what I was referring to.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Uh...yes there are.

If a party attacks a group unaware, they get to take a full round of actions...a surprise round...before the enemy does (page 189 of the PHB). This is what I was referring to.

"Surprise Round" is not a term found in 5E. Surprise is more of a condition a character may have that limits what they can do in the first Round of Combat which again is never referred to as a "Surprise Round" in any 5e book.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I had no idea how many people houseruled the initiative system to allow auto-successes. To me it completely defeats the purpose as a method of adjudicating the transition from time keeping in minutes to seconds.

5e is wonderfully mutable. Choosing a different method of adjudicating the transition from time keeping in minutes to seconds that works for your table seems like no big deal to me.

 

[abirdcall]

Uh...yes there are.

If a party attacks a group unaware, they get to take a full round of actions...a surprise round...before the enemy does (page 189 of the PHB). This is what I was referring to.

Surprise is determined by creature/character individually, not by group.

In the first round, surprised characters still roll initiative. Being surprised means that they cannot take actions on their first turn and cannot take reactions until that turn is over.

There is no separate 'surprise round'. The 2 most common (in my experience) reasons why this matters are:

1. Surprise is determined individually not by group
2. Assassins still need to win initiative to gain their auto-crit ability as a creature is no longer surprised after they have had a turn.

 

[abirdcall]

5e is wonderfully mutable. Choosing a different method of adjudicating the transition from time keeping in minutes to seconds that works for your table seems like no big deal to me.

Sure. I find with this in particular many claim that it is -

1. not a house rule
2. the way it should be
3. ignore the ramifications of what the changes do to the game

As with all houserules (I use a bunch myself) it is important to note that it will have consequences on the default design of the game. Personally I don't think the auto-win initiative thing makes any sense but I'm not at your table so that doesn't matter. I don't know what I would do if a DM did that, I suppose it wouldn't itself be a deal breaker, more of an annoyance.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Sure. I find with this in particular many claim that it is -

1. not a house rule
2. the way it should be
3. ignore the ramifications of what the changes do to the game

As with all houserules (I use a bunch myself) it is important to note that it will have consequences on the default design of the game. Personally I don't think the auto-win initiative thing makes any sense but I'm not at your table so that doesn't matter. I don't know what I would do if a DM did that, I suppose it wouldn't itself be a deal breaker, more of an annoyance.

The biggest change I saw with my method was a bit of a rush to be the first to declare a violent action when combat seemed eminent.

However, that seemed to fade after picking a fight they definitely were better off not picking.

 

[Lanefan]

"Surprise Round" is not a term found in 5E. Surprise is more of a condition a character may have that limits what they can do in the first Round of Combat which again is never referred to as a "Surprise Round" in any 5e book.

Which by design considerably weakens surprise (except for maybe a few specific classes/actions) to the point where it's almost irrelevant much of the time.

If I've got surprise then nobody - not my target, nor its allies, nor my own allies - should get to do anything until I've completed my first attack, after which initiative - maybe modified by the situation - comes into things. But those modifiers shouldn't carry on through the whole battle, another point in favour of rerolling init each round.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

If a party attacks a group unaware, they get to take a full round of actions...a surprise round...before the enemy does (page 189 of the PHB).

You're missing an important subtlety.
The party gets to take their Actions (and Bonus Actions) before the enemy does, but the enemy might still be able to take their Reactions.

If Conan surprises Hissar Zul but Zul rolls better on initiative then Zul can react to Conan's actions.

 

[Les Moore]

This has always been a judgment call situation for the DM. If I decide to start a fight by drawing my two handed sword, walking across the room and attacking... well, people might be able to respond before I can get there and attack. On the other hand, if I am standing next to someone and suddenly slap them unexpectedly, it is hard to stop it.

The biggest advantage would be in the lower levels. Given a standard size party of five or six, acceding one initiative, occasionally, to the one character who
actually starts the attack seems little enough, to keep play moving, and morale up. Given, of course, that it is an unpredicted and unobvious attack, at the time.