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What makes D&D, D&D?

MechaPilot

Explorer
A) I've never played Palladium

Hence the importance of the included link, for reference.


B) Alignment is not a code, or a strict guideline. From the book, alignment
"broadly describes its moral and personal attitudes."

I'm aware of what alignment does in D&D. That's part of why I think Palladium does alignment better.


If you want a code, there are classes and backgrounds to fill it out.

Codes for classes and backgrounds are, unsurprisingly, tailored to fit a specific class or background, and you might want to play something other than that class or background while also having a code. And there's nothing wrong with a character of any class or background having a code. Frankly, what D&D says alignment is "[a person's] moral and personal attitudes" when taken together forms an unwritten code of personal conduct the character (usually) should adhere to if it's being true to who it is.

The primary difference between D&D and palladium alignments comes down to the following difference:

D&D: I"m Lawful-Good. Which means I'm lawful. . . and good.

Palladium: I'm Principled. Which means I always keep my word, I avoid lies, I never kill or attack an unarmed foe, I never torture for any reason, I never kill for pleasure, I always help others, I work within the law whenever possible, I never take dirty-money or ill-gotten goods,and I never betray a friend.
 

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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I played 4E up to level 30 and DMed a different campaign up to level 30. Many people would take exception to "the best designed version". But I don't want to get into edition wars. It was what it was, one of which was the version that practically killed D&D.
4th edition was the edition that was currently supported at a time when D&D almost died. It was partially, but not wholly responsible for that near-death, and that responsibility is only in part due to "not feeling like D&D."

So pick something you think is a sacred cow. Alignment as an example. You listed it as a sacred cow. I think it's quick to understand, efficiently conveys information and in it's over-simplified way kind of elegant.

How would you improve it?
Well, first of all, decide if alignment matters or not. If it doesn't have any more impact than a character's hair and eye color, just get rid of it. Otherwise, it needs clear, consistent definitions. Here's an article on the subject that is more or less in line with my own opinion.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
Alignment nowadays really doesn't mean much in the way of game mechanics or requirements. You can play without it and the game runs just as well as it would when it is written on the character sheet.
 

GreyLord

Legend
This thread is pretty crazy. What it seems to indicate is up until 2000 D&D was pretty defined and most knew exactly what defined it.

However, now days, half the things people bring up is simply saying D&D=roleplaying and any time you play any roleplaying game it is D&D.

Another quarter on top of that (so around 75% of the stuff) describes other RPGs that do very similar things to D&D, but are different RPGs. (such as simply having 6 ability scores, or saves, or many other things other RPGs actually do possess)

Which seems to indicate that D&D has LOST a LOT Of what actually defines it differently from every other RPG out there.

And the only thing that makes D&D...D&D...is someone slapping the name D&D on a game system and declaring it such.

The rest DO cover things such as the specific six stats (other games have six ability scores, but D&D has specific ones, alignment and classes that require alignment such as the paladin...etc...etc...etc), and are specific enough that one could identify D&D from it.

As a result, scarily enough, I think this post in this thread actually describes how a LOT of people think of, define, and see D&D these days.

For me?

D&D is whatever the copy right owner says it is.

d&d is a generic name for a fantasy RPG with class and levels.

However, it seems a little crazy to see that people basically have a very generic view of D&D that could actually apply to other RPGs out there. It would indicate that even if they are playing another RPG, if asked what they are doing, they'd probably reply...playing D&D.

I guess it depends an where you were at then, because that wasn't my experience at all (I played 1e from 1981 to 2012). The only time you couldn't easily transition from one table to the next was when you had something like:

"Hey, this is Maximillion,my Irda paladin with 18/00 strength and a +8 special made holy avenger. He's the son of a god."

But as far as houserules? The only variation I really saw from group to group was preference for stat generation. Everything else was pretty much the same. Weapons v armor chart? Ignored. Start at max HP at level 1? about 75/25 split.

That's pretty much what I saw as well...and that's from travel all the way from California to Europe where I saw the similarities. I almost always could drop in a game where ever and basically know the rules from the get go and meld right in.

There were houserules, but nothing so drastic as to really make the game truly different, unsure where people get that idea these days that games were that drastically different. I didn't really see that back then

(and as per the post that this initially replied to that referred to level limits as a drastic change between tables, no, someone ruling that the are no level limits does NOT drastically change the game rules from one game to the next...that's ONE rule among many...if that gives a perspective of what I would consider a non-drastic change in rules and how easily it was to go from game to game).

Maybe 5E's popularity is just coincidence, but I think part of it is just the style of play that it evokes. So I understand the hesitance to change the basic mechanics of the game. If the formula works, there's not a lot of motivation to tweak it.

In any case put me on the side of most things are "good enough" and not sacred cows. Why change things that are not broken? There's a handful of things (I dislike how ability replacement items work) but those are easily house ruled.

I think I agree with the idea (didn't quote the full post, but what I quoted above). 5e is simple enough for people to get started on it easily and quickly, has basic rules that people can remember pretty much from the get go, and is easily modified or utilized to play the game that they want.

I think that all plays into the popularity of 5e and has made it perhaps the most popular version of the game (D&D) since AD&D and BECMI.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Hence the importance of the included link, for reference.
Which is useful, but from that page there's no obvious way to get to their codes for the other alignments, which I'd be interested in seeing.

The primary difference between D&D and palladium alignments comes down to the following difference:

D&D: I"m Lawful-Good. Which means I'm lawful. . . and good.

Palladium: I'm Principled. Which means I always keep my word, I avoid lies, I never kill or attack an unarmed foe, I never torture for any reason, I never kill for pleasure, I always help others, I work within the law whenever possible, I never take dirty-money or ill-gotten goods,and I never betray a friend.
The advantage of the D&D version is that it's not so restrictive. If all the Palladium alignments are this restrictive (which is one reason why I'd like to see the rest) a lot of very good and playable character concepts would go straight out the window.

Lanefan
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
Which is useful, but from that page there's no obvious way to get to their codes for the other alignments, which I'd be interested in seeing.

The advantage of the D&D version is that it's not so restrictive. If all the Palladium alignments are this restrictive (which is one reason why I'd like to see the rest) a lot of very good and playable character concepts would go straight out the window.

Lanefan

Here's the alignments.

https://imgur.com/gallery/DmKvb/comment/565655937
 

Grainger

Explorer
For me, a lot of the stuff that is "D&D" isn't hard-coded into the mechanics of the game. Rather, it's things that give the game a certain tone and feel. Mimics, Mind-flayers, certain specific magic items (Apparatus of Kawalish, Portable Hole and Bag of Holding, I'm looking at you here), etc. And all of these are things that can be represented in virtually any system in which one plays.

I haven't used any of that stuff (except Mimics, once), but my games are D&D. However, this raises an interesting point - I could use this stuff, and my players are aware it could come up (or at least they think it could - some of it I will certainly never use - others I may never get round to).

So, any particular instance of D&D is perhaps more D&D-ish than is granted by the stuff actually in it! This is because all at the table are aware it's within the framework called D&D and so the trademark D&D stuff could always show up. There could always be a Beholder in the next cave. That is, unless the DM explicitly says Mind Flayers, Dragons, Beholders, Bags of Holding etc. aren't in his/her world - then we start to get into grey areas.
 
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Grainger

Explorer
I don't use alignment in my campaign. I think it's crass, and I'm glad it's divorced from the mechanics in 5e so it can be ignored. And that's before we get to the disagreements that can emerge between DM and player (insoluble by philosophers, let alone gamers) about what their character should do based on the meaning of the label they picked when they rolled up.

Have characters (PCs and NPCs) say and do stuff. The audience at the table can get the measure of them from that, just like in any other form of fiction. In no other form of fiction (even genre fiction) - nor in life - are characters assigned explicit alignments. The personalities of characters are evident from their words and deeds.

Alignment adds nothing to the game, and characters work fine without it. Try playing without it - you won't miss it.

So, taking this back on topic, alignment may well be one of the hallmarks of the game as a brand (and I think Mearls said it was something they felt had to be in 5e to make it D&D). But it's an element we don't actually need in play (and I think that is acknowledged by Mearls and co in its total superfluousness to the mechanics of 5e).
 

Oofta

Legend
Hence the importance of the included link, for reference.




I'm aware of what alignment does in D&D. That's part of why I think Palladium does alignment better.




Codes for classes and backgrounds are, unsurprisingly, tailored to fit a specific class or background, and you might want to play something other than that class or background while also having a code. And there's nothing wrong with a character of any class or background having a code. Frankly, what D&D says alignment is "[a person's] moral and personal attitudes" when taken together forms an unwritten code of personal conduct the character (usually) should adhere to if it's being true to who it is.

The primary difference between D&D and palladium alignments comes down to the following difference:

D&D: I"m Lawful-Good. Which means I'm lawful. . . and good.

Palladium: I'm Principled. Which means I always keep my word, I avoid lies, I never kill or attack an unarmed foe, I never torture for any reason, I never kill for pleasure, I always help others, I work within the law whenever possible, I never take dirty-money or ill-gotten goods,and I never betray a friend.

D'oh! Sorry about missing the link. Just blind.

But ... I'd hate that. It's a straight jacket with little room for interpretation or flexibility. That openness to making the game your own is a cornerstone of D&D.

I don't know how many Palladium alignments there are, but I've played LG characters that
  • Didn't keep his word because he realized it had been made based on false pretenses. Sort of ... that one's a long story.
  • Lied because they were undercover (and probably other reasons).
  • Killed an unarmed enemy because sorry, he didn't believe in comic book morality.
  • Didn't help others because he had to choose the greater good (which sucked).
  • Ignored the law and disrespected authority (eventually) because he realized it was hopelessly corrupt.
  • Took money from bad guys.

I'm sure I could cover a few of the other things as well. Which is one of the things that make D&D D&D. The flexibility of interpretation. You may not agree with some of the things he did. You may not think they were the acts of a Lawful Good paladin .... but it was my game not yours. My PC viewed the world as a place where order was better than chaos. He viewed compassion, respect and helping others as ideals to live by even if he sometimes had to resort to violence.

In other words, I felt he was a more fleshed out person who struggled with their ideals versus the reality of the dark and dangerous world he lived in.

On the other hand, I've had CN characters who lived by a code of personal freedom who would never lie (he viewed it as a sign of weakness), would never renege on a promise even if it meant hurting others, didn't believe in torture, etc, etc, etc. In other words in some ways if I just told you what he did he might sound more in line with your "principled" alignment.

So this is one "sacred cow" that I think makes D&D what it is. Want a character that follows your "Principled Character" definition? Great. But what's their alignment?
 

Oofta

Legend

Thanks for the full list. It also makes me dislike that system even more. It's telling me what my character will and will not do. Instead, D&D alignment give me a broad brush-stroke how does the character approach life.

But I'm old, I originally based my ideas of alignment on a book that had the chart below. There's a lot of room to move around in any of the alignments. Someone could be LG and a saint that follows that Palladium alignment or they could be LG with neutral leanings. Strictly adhere to the law, but bend the rules a bit but only when they absolutely had to do so.

Alignment Chart.jpeg
 

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