D&D 5E What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?

[Sadras]

I'd rather just skip all those rolls, say they all failed, and run around the dungeon naked. Especially if I was playing a monk.

Or a Paladin - "hey everybody, get a good look at my 17 Charisma!"

Well this suggests that your Charisma score decreases when your paladin is clothed.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Or a Paladin - "hey everybody, get a good look at my 17 Charisma!"

"Don't act like you're not impressed."

 

[Gradine]

I have flashbacks now of "did not say you looked up"!!!

Nobody ever looks up.

I'm not saying that there isn't a place to allow players to have more agency in what their characters do or do not know. I'm saying that D&D, with its rich world-building and lore, is a terrible place for it.

 

[S'mon]

there can be no ability check without a task that precedes it

You keep saying this, but it's not true per RAW. It seems like a bee that got stuck in your bonet after you read one line, ignoring the rest of the book.

Someone tries to grapple you - you roll an opposed Athletics or Acrobatics check to resist.

The GM tells you to roll Initiative - you roll a DEX check.

That's just two of the most obvious, non-knowledge based, examples of where a roll resists action or precedes action.

 

[iserith]

You keep saying this, but it's not true per RAW. It seems like a bee that got stuck in your bonet after you read one line, ignoring the rest of the book.

Someone tries to grapple you - you roll an opposed Athletics or Acrobatics check to resist.

The GM tells you to roll Initiative - you roll a DEX check.

That's just two of the most obvious, non-knowledge based, examples of where a roll resists action or precedes action.

All of these rules work fine with my assertions, which are based on the rules I've pointed out.

"Someone tries to grapple you - what do you do?" If you try to use brute force to break away or nimbly sidestep to slip away, then you're making a Strength (Athletics) check or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check if the outcome is uncertain. If you try to do something other than that, the DM may say you succeed, fail, or call for some other ability check.

"The monsters move to attack - what do you do?" If you attempt to defend yourself, counterattack, or flee, it's time for initiative to determine who goes first. If you try something else, then some other ability check may be appropriate, if there's an uncertain outcome and a meaningful consequence of failure.

This follows the section on How to Play, plus the rules for ability checks. That you or others may play it differently is fine, but I'm not wrong here.

 

[5ekyu]

Nobody ever looks up.

I'm not saying that there isn't a place to allow players to have more agency in what their characters do or do not know. I'm saying that D&D, with its rich world-building and lore, is a terrible place for it.

Ok... I see no connection between those at all.

In game after game, system after system, the benefits of assumption of character competence without overly hinging on overt keyword targets hit by players has been seen and to my standards proven.

 

[5ekyu]

You keep saying this, but it's not true per RAW. It seems like a bee that got stuck in your bonet after you read one line, ignoring the rest of the book.

Someone tries to grapple you - you roll an opposed Athletics or Acrobatics check to resist.

The GM tells you to roll Initiative - you roll a DEX check.

That's just two of the most obvious, non-knowledge based, examples of where a roll resists action or precedes action.

This would be especially true if it were a case of surprised PCs right?
The enemies attack with surprise, the initiative check is called for and the surprised PCs cannot take actions barring special rules - right?

What is the specific declared action you must take to get an initiative check if you are surprised with no action?

"My action is to bleed from these arrows"

 

[Gradine]

Ok... I see no connection between those at all.

In game after game, system after system, the benefits of assumption of character competence without overly hinging on overt keyword targets hit by players has been seen and to my standards proven.

Maybe it's late and I'm tired, but I'm having trouble parsing exactly what it is you're arguing. I think we're arguing the same thing, mostly? Especially if I'm reading that bit about "overtly hitting keyword targets" right?

My "there's a place for player agency in character knowledge" comment was more related to games that have shared world-building built in to their system, a la FATE or especially Dresden Files.

 

[5ekyu]

Maybe it's late and I'm tired, but I'm having trouble parsing exactly what it is you're arguing. I think we're arguing the same thing, mostly? Especially if I'm reading that bit about "overtly hitting keyword targets" right?

My "there's a place for player agency in character knowledge" comment was more related to games that have shared world-building built in to their system, a la FATE or especially Dresden Files.

I have no idea why there is a connection between rich world building and lore and players having more say or less keyword lock (vs skill check) to access "what my character knows." To me it seems that regardless of how much lore there is or whether its gm built or player built lore and world stuff the issue of "does this character know it" is just as important.

But that's fine.

Edit to add - some world in my 5e scfi space opera were built by players. Some by me. Some from core source. Whether characters know of those or not (and how we determine that) does not change with the source.

 

[S'mon]

This would be especially true if it were a case of surprised PCs right?
The enemies attack with surprise, the initiative check is called for and the surprised PCs cannot take actions barring special rules - right?

What is the specific declared action you must take to get an initiative check if you are surprised with no action?

"My action is to bleed from these arrows"

Thanks. Yes. A Surprised creature can't even take reactions never mind actions, yet they roll an ability check on DEX to determine when their surprised state ends.