Character Death Variant

[hawkeyefan]

I was thinking about how to possibly make 5E a bit more dangerous as it relates to PC death. I think I came up with a decent option. I’ve not yet tried it in play, but I wanted to run it by folks here for feedback, suggested changes, and unnecessarily harsh criticism!

We start by removing death saves. PCs will now die at 0 HP like in early editions. However, they’ll also get starting HP equal to their CON score. That’s their “Base HP”. In addition, they’ll accumulate HP by class and CON bonus per level as normal.

So the PCs will have more HP to start. The Base HP are the last they willlose. Anytime the PC takes damage that leaves them within their Base HP amount, they are considered “at death’s door”. This means the player has the option to have the PC fall unconscious or to press on.

This gives players a little more control on if they want to press their luck, or be cautious and go down. It also serves as a clear daner zone....when they’re near their Base HP, they know they’re going to be at risk.

I like that it puts the decision to go down or not in the players’ hands. I like that it removes the safety net of HP loss stopping once a PC is at 0 HP. I think this idea or something similar would help inject some lethality into the game and do so in a way that was very clear to players.

I hope that‘s clear. What do you guys think? Are there implications from other rules that I’ve missed? Does this sound horrible to you as a player? As a DM?

 

[5ekyu]

I was thinking about how to possibly make 5E a bit more dangerous as it relates to PC death. I think I came up with a decent option. I’ve not yet tried it in play, but I wanted to run it by folks here for feedback, suggested changes, and unnecessarily harsh criticism!

We start by removing death saves. PCs will now die at 0 HP like in early editions. However, they’ll also get starting HP equal to their CON score. That’s their “Base HP”. In addition, they’ll accumulate HP by class and CON bonus per level as normal.

So the PCs will have more HP to start. The Base HP are the last they willlose. Anytime the PC takes damage that leaves them within their Base HP amount, they are considered “at death’s door”. This means the player has the option to have the PC fall unconscious or to press on.

This gives players a little more control on if they want to press their luck, or be cautious and go down. It also serves as a clear daner zone....when they’re near their Base HP, they know they’re going to be at risk.

I like that it puts the decision to go down or not in the players’ hands. I like that it removes the safety net of HP loss stopping once a PC is at 0 HP. I think this idea or something similar would help inject some lethality into the game and do so in a way that was very clear to players.

I hope that‘s clear. What do you guys think? Are there implications from other rules that I’ve missed? Does this sound horrible to you as a player? As a DM?

So a warlock with 12 con starts with 12 hp rather than 9 but 0 equals dead and he can choose to go unconscioys, risking auto-crits, on any hit?

Without death saves any,crit can just kill them. Since there is no stabilize spare the dying, healers kit etc all go to useless and the only resources that matter then are healing.



That seems to make survival at low levels extremely difficult and at higher levels the "extra hp" are lost in the shuffle and since the monster attacks might be instantly lethal they effectively have less.

Heck first level guiding bolt crits - 8d6 dmg - that puts an average of 28hp or less just dead.

You are effectively reducing their hp, not increasing them and adding insta-dead from lucky shots. Is thos the game your players ask for?

 

[FrogReaver]

I was thinking about how to possibly make 5E a bit more dangerous as it relates to PC death. I think I came up with a decent option. I’ve not yet tried it in play, but I wanted to run it by folks here for feedback, suggested changes, and unnecessarily harsh criticism!

We start by removing death saves. PCs will now die at 0 HP like in early editions. However, they’ll also get starting HP equal to their CON score. That’s their “Base HP”. In addition, they’ll accumulate HP by class and CON bonus per level as normal.

So the PCs will have more HP to start. The Base HP are the last they willlose. Anytime the PC takes damage that leaves them within their Base HP amount, they are considered “at death’s door”. This means the player has the option to have the PC fall unconscious or to press on.

This gives players a little more control on if they want to press their luck, or be cautious and go down. It also serves as a clear daner zone....when they’re near their Base HP, they know they’re going to be at risk.

I like that it puts the decision to go down or not in the players’ hands. I like that it removes the safety net of HP loss stopping once a PC is at 0 HP. I think this idea or something similar would help inject some lethality into the game and do so in a way that was very clear to players.

I hope that‘s clear. What do you guys think? Are there implications from other rules that I’ve missed? Does this sound horrible to you as a player? As a DM?

Just to be perfectly clear, a 14 con barbarian and a 14 con wizard are going to start with the same hp?

 

[hawkeyefan]

So a warlock with 12 con starts with 12 hp rather than 9 but 0 equals dead and he can choose to go unconscioys, risking auto-crits, on any hit?

Without death saves any,crit can just kill them. Since there is no stabilize spare the dying, healers kit etc all go to useless and the only resources that matter then are healing.



That seems to make survival at low levels extremely difficult and at higher levels the "extra hp" are lost in the shuffle and since the monster attacks might be instantly lethal they effectively have less.

Heck first level guiding bolt crits - 8d6 dmg - that puts an average of 28hp or less just dead.

You are effectively reducing their hp, not increasing them and adding insta-dead from lucky shots. Is thos the game your players ask for?

Sorry...I meant to put an example in my initial post.

At first level, your Warlock would get 12 Base HP (his CON score). Then he’d also get 9 based on his d8 hit die (maxed for 1st level) and 1 bonus HP from his CON. So he’d have 21 HP. Anytime he dropped to 12 or less, he’d have to choose to go unconscious or keep going.

Yes, low level characters would be at risk of instant death due to a crit, that’s true. I’m not exactly happy about that, but I’m also not totally against it. I’m not sure if there’s a way to prevent it in this method. Any ideas?

 

[hawkeyefan]

Just to be perfectly clear, a 14 con barbarian and a 14 con wizard are going to start with the same hp?

No, sorry that wasn’t clearer. I just clarified in my last post, but just to be sure....each of them would have their normal starting HP PLUS 14 for their CON score. Barb would have 28 and wiz would have 22.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I hope that‘s clear. What do you guys think? Are there implications from other rules that I’ve missed? Does this sound horrible to you as a player? As a DM?

It sounds extremely similar to 3.x, or Pathfinder more specifically, where you went unconscious at zero and died at -Con score.

It's hard to describe the psychological process of a player being presented with a choice of whether they want to stay conscious. I think we're all aware of how staying down can be safer, because you aren't considered a threat and so the enemies will stop attacking you. I'm not sure how to acknowledge that, as a player, without drawing attention to the courtesy that monsters normally perform by not finishing you off. As a player, I would rather that it not be my decision.

Additionally, as mentioned, an HP buffer is not as effective as a death save buffer. Characters are much more likely to be killed from a 40-point dragon breath, where they are currently immune to insta-death past level 5 or so. That could be a positive or a negative, depending on your perspective.

Personally, I wouldn't like this rule, because it's an obvious difference between PCs and NPCs. With the default dying rules in 5E, the only difference between an important character and an unimportant one is that we assume the unimportant character eventually bleeds out (which is a reasonable assumption, given that Team Monster doesn't usually have healing magic). With this change in effect, suddenly the difference between the party winning and losing may come down to whether or not the DM decides that the enemies are important. It's a little bit more fiat power than I like to force upon the DM. (And of course, giving every NPC an extra ~10hp would cause combat to bog way down, as we all remember from 4E).

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

As Saelorn says, it's just like 3.5 except, instead of negative hit points, you are giving them the hit points in advance.

The difference is, in 3.5, unless you had a feat, Diehard, you automatically went unconscious.

There's nothing wrong with the method your describing other than it's a bit harsher than 5e where you can get smashed for 30 damage when you are at 5 hit points and still live. It's more like previous editions and it works.

It was always very tense when you got down to low double digit Hit points in 3.5 because a crit could drop you dead. Personally, since I started playing 5e, I don't ever get woried when my Hit Points get in the single digits because, you can't actually die from a hit...

...You can only die from failing 3 saves.

The exception is Massive damage: a Crit at first level can kill you anyways because you can easily be hit for double your hit points, so there's that. You're squishy at first no matter what.

Here's a question: What happens if you decide to go unconscious? Do you make Death Saves or are you out for the encounter.

Here's my beef with 3e unconsciousness and, probably, one of the reasons 5e changed it to 3 death saves: It sucks to be unconscious for the whole fight. The advantage of never going below 0 and never dying at 0 is you can always be healed up and fight some more. It was painful in 3.5 watching people fight while you made a death save to stabilize and, even if you did get healed, it might not be enough to put you over 0...so you just sat there, turn after turn, waiting. Once you were up? You got the hell out of dodge...unless a tpk was imminent. In which case you risked death again.

So, back to that question: what will players do once they are unconcious? How will they get revived? And how will you make it not suck to sit, round after round, waiting while you wait for someone to do enough healing to get you back over that threshold? Because, I think, that's just as important as the whole death thing.

 

[Mort]

Yes, low level characters would be at risk of instant death due to a crit, that’s true. I’m not exactly happy about that, but I’m also not totally against it. I’m not sure if there’s a way to prevent it in this method. Any ideas?

This is much scarier for high level characters!

Low level characters (especially 1st level) are already prone to instant death from a lucky crit (as my group's wizard found out in the very first 5e session we ever played and an encounter with a heavy crossbow).

Mid-High level characters under the current rules have a very low level chance of instant death (though if the monster has multi-attack or there are multiples the character can still be toast).

Under your house rule, a high level character low on hit points is just as prone to immediate death, and since high level foes do more damage actually much more so.

Also I don't like how disproportionately your rule affects melee characters. The already dangerous role becomes even more deadly - to the point of discouraging such characters.

 

[Mort]

I was thinking about how to possibly make 5E a bit more dangerous as it relates to PC death. I think I came up with a decent option. I’ve not yet tried it in play, but I wanted to run it by folks here for feedback, suggested changes, and unnecessarily harsh criticism!

We start by removing death saves. PCs will now die at 0 HP like in early editions. However, they’ll also get starting HP equal to their CON score. That’s their “Base HP”. In addition, they’ll accumulate HP by class and CON bonus per level as normal.

Your way will work (as stated above) but seems, a bit inelegant?

Why not keep death saves, but not have them reset as easily. Instead of resetting upon going above 0, they don't reset until a short or even long rest.

When we first started 5e (at the playtest) that's how we played it (can't remember if that was the rule at the time or if we just misread the rules). Players played their characters much more cautiously and carefully!

 

[Quickleaf]

I was thinking about how to possibly make 5E a bit more dangerous as it relates to PC death. I think I came up with a decent option. I’ve not yet tried it in play, but I wanted to run it by folks here for feedback, suggested changes, and unnecessarily harsh criticism!

We start by removing death saves. PCs will now die at 0 HP like in early editions. However, they’ll also get starting HP equal to their CON score. That’s their “Base HP”. In addition, they’ll accumulate HP by class and CON bonus per level as normal.

So the PCs will have more HP to start. The Base HP are the last they willlose. Anytime the PC takes damage that leaves them within their Base HP amount, they are considered “at death’s door”. This means the player has the option to have the PC fall unconscious or to press on.

This gives players a little more control on if they want to press their luck, or be cautious and go down. It also serves as a clear daner zone....when they’re near their Base HP, they know they’re going to be at risk.

I like that it puts the decision to go down or not in the players’ hands. I like that it removes the safety net of HP loss stopping once a PC is at 0 HP. I think this idea or something similar would help inject some lethality into the game and do so in a way that was very clear to players.

I hope that‘s clear. What do you guys think? Are there implications from other rules that I’ve missed? Does this sound horrible to you as a player? As a DM?

Implications for greater PC hit points mean the PCs will be more resistant to spells like sleep, color spray, power word kill, etc. Those spells target a certain # of HP or a creature with X or less HP.