Star Wars What I Would Have Done

[Zardnaar]

LOL.

Says someone who obviously has never seen the inside of a Sherman tank. Hint, tiller bars and caterpillar treads are not the same as a truck. Not even close. And, never minding that a flying vehicle is considerably more difficult to operate. But, without any training, apparently the farm hand can hop into the equivalent of an F15 and operate it without any problems. In fact, he's a better pilot than the horde of TIE fighter pilots who had years of training, as well as the couple dozen or so Rebel pilots that get shot down.

AFAIK, a T-16 isn't even shown in any of the movies. Does it have shields? How many engines does it have? How many weapons? It has ion cannons? Torpedo launchers? That's quite the truck you're driving there.

Oh, an with, what, a couple of weeks of training, Luke holds his own, and then later, defeats Vader in a saber duel. That's some pretty intense training there.

Good grief, whinging that Rey is a Mary Sue character in Star Wars is kinda pointless no? EVERY Star Wars character is the best of the best.

Probably more comparable to a cropduster feing able to fly a military biplane. I think T 16s have a small gun he used to shoot womp rats.

They established in the movievhevwas a pilot. He said he could fly the falcon. They established he was a marksman and x wings have R2.

Luke also had to much of his father in him who was one of the greatest pilots in the Galaxy. All of that was ANH.

Take Finn. He gad military training it's not unreasonable he can use a gun or function ad a Gunner. Ww2 had a black cook man an AA gun atvPearl Harbor.

Rey didn't even use a blaster until Han gave her one. Yeah dsure we don't really need an explaination about her using a staff or Kylo using freeze blaster bolt.
Finn swung it like a club he wasn't deflecting blaster bolts.

It wasn't just Rey either the little kid could use telekinesis. What's the point of training or having padawans in all of the previous movies.

Even in legends untrained force users were dangerous more due to the dark side than spontaneous use of force lightning.

 

[Zardnaar]

I just explained who's really flying & fighting that X-Wing.



Sure it is. It's the wedge winged model Luke's playing with while 3P0's in the oil bath.
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I'll just assume there's shots of a "real" one in action somewhere in the Special Edition re-edits...

Forgot about that. Luke's a pilot though. It's like Lucas thought about plot and world building.

T-16s have a laser cannons, a pneumatic gun and Luke used to bullseye womp rats in em. So yes he can fly and use weapons.

In SWSE RPG he had 2 feats, skill focus piloting, force sensitive hit level 3 being trained and spent that feat on skill traing use the force and picked up lightsaber use via mcing into Jedi. At the end of ANH he uses the force blows a force point or maybe a destiny point for an auto crit on the deathstar reactor that casing probably had less than 200 hit points.

Hmmmn Rey could be KoToR style an have altered memories that would make her character make sense if she is similar to Revan.

 

[Hussar]

I just explained who's really flying & fighting that X-Wing.

Ahh, so, we're back to inventing interpretations.

Sure it is. It's the wedge winged model Luke's playing with while 3P0's in the oil bath.
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I'll just assume there's shots of a "real" one in action somewhere in the Special Edition re-edits...

Cool. I never actually knew that. But, by the same token, umm, I'm thinking that that's not really the same as flying one of the most advanced fighters out there.

So, we're free to invent interpretations where it's actually R2, who, had never been shown to be able to fly anything previously, piloting Luke's X-wing, but, it's a bridge too far to think that Rey might have learned to shoot a gun at some point in her history of surviving?

Yeah, now I remember why I these conversations are just so baffling.

Legends? What's that? Don't exist. Not canon. Don't care. All that stuff you learned from the RPG or from some novel? Not true. It's a figment of someone's imagination.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

That scene was meant to show that it was an important moment for Rey, not that in the grand scheme of the galaxy. I felt it illustrated that well enough. She will likely never forget that shuttle flying off without her, but perhaps those parents are really not consequential to the greater story at play. And that is alright.

Not everyone has to come from amazing storied parents.

I think it's totally legitimate to say "Rey's parents are not important in the grand scheme of thigns". But the thing is, they were definitely important to Rey. And TLJ's "answer" to what her parents are is not really meaningful or useful to the story. She still want to know who her parents where and why they left her. And I am not convinced a Vader-wannabe's word would satisfy that desire to know.



I think the whole discussion about "training" and "to good out of the gate" really misses what the important thing is: We see Luke or Anakin struggle, lose and fail in the movies. They are good, talented, gifted and mythical heroes, but they must still fight and can fail, and then pick themselves up.

The thing that realy seems to be missing there is the "struggle" part with Rey. There might be perfectly good reasons why she could fight well, fly well, and beat an injured Kylo Ren. But the excitement and the identification with characters become usually more strong when you see them fail first, and then pick themselves up. That's probably also a reason why ESB is now so popular, because it ends with Luke failure to beat Vader and him having to deal knowing his father is the vilain he hated all this time - and we know he'll pick himself up in RotJ. (And he doesn't just fail the fight with Vader, his training is not really going so great at first.)

 

[Zardnaar]

Sure they can declear legends non canon doesn't make it go away. If it wasn't for the Thrawn Trilogy Disney couldn't buy Star Wars as the old legends popularity put Star Wars back into the cultural awareness. Not that we actually need to resort to legends material that much but they portrayed interesting female characters well. Just don't mention Daala though that was crappy writing for that character. She had a good intro like Rey though.

The OT movies are not perfect (ESB comes close though).

 

[Shasarak]

It’s the same old sexist BS. Guys can be super-competent action heroes all over the place - from Luke and Anakin to John McClane and Indiana Jones. But if it’s someone with a vagina she’s gotta be a Mary Sue.

Obviously she has to have a vagina to be a Mary Sue.

 

[ccs]

Ahh, so, we're back to inventing interpretations.

Ahh, one of those SW fans who's too rigid about it for some humor.

Cool. I never actually knew that. But, by the same token, umm, I'm thinking that that's not really the same as flying one of the most advanced fighters out there.

(shrugs) I don't know. Luke claimed it, the rebels basically accepted it. Me? Well, I also don't worry about Flash Gordon manages to fly a ship. They fly their ships because that's the genre.

So, we're free to invent interpretations where it's actually R2, who, had never been shown to be able to fly anything previously, piloting Luke's X-wing,

{WARNING: Star Wars humor ahead.}
Oh no. If you watch the movies in the order they're released of course you wouldn't realize that R2 is this capable. For an astro-mech droid he's still pretty crafty & tricky though. And 3P0 comments on this.
But as you watch ESB, RotJ....
And then you watch him in action throughout the prequels & Clone Wars series....
So by the time we get to ANH? Of course he's better in the X-Wing than Luke!

I don't think this is what was intended. Not at all. Clearly it's the story of Luke Skywalker becoming the hero of the galaxy.
It's just one of those humorous things that piles up after 5 additional movies + a cartoon series gets done using a character.
Years after the original you're left pondering just how experienced R2 really is going into the Battle of Yavin.
Hmmm....

but, it's a bridge too far to think that Rey might have learned to shoot a gun at some point in her history of surviving?

Yeah, now I remember why I these conversations are just so baffling.

Don't mix me up with Zard etc. I don't have a problem with the heroes of the story doing their thing. Of course they can do their thing. That's the genre!
I just wish the current batch of movies had been better.
And when Disney wants me to know the backstory of how Rey can fight or fly or whatever so well? Then they'll try & sell me another movie tkt or a comic or a streaming subscription or something.

Legends? What's that? Don't exist. Not canon. Don't care. All that stuff you learned from the RPG or from some novel? Not true. It's a figment of someone's imagination.

That I can agree with.

 

[Zardnaar]

Other genres don't matter that much to me. Rambo was an ex soldier its all you really need to know, Ripley is a marine, but even in Superhero movies they normally have something to explain the superpowers. Its not that Rey has them its that she has them and is so power "just because".

They can't work out a big backstory due to say the 2 hours or so but in ANH.

1. Lukes father was a great pilot.
2. Luke is a piot
3. He is a good shooter
4. He is force sensitive
5. He struggled a bit with his 1st lesson.
6. He used very few force powers as such and barely used the force at all (vs the drone and DS run).

If Luke was female she still ticks all the boxes.

Switch Rey to male and you still have the same problem. There is still a lack of character development, he would still have all these unexplained powers in a setting where its established how to get them. Hypothetical Ray is still boring because he never got tempted by the darkside, never really got defeated, never lost any limbs and was using these powers even Luke and Anakin had to learn either directly or heavily implied (Anakin spent 10 years with the Jedi Order TPM-AoTC).

Using a different genre. Game of Thrones, does anyone at all like Sansa vs Arya. I'm sure there are some Sansa fans somewhere but who will win a popularity contest there?

Another genre because I'm an 80's kid. Hulk Hogan Mr America superhero vs Stone Cold Steve Austin or the peoples champion Rock. Who is more interesting.

Farscape Crichton or Arryn Synn?

Who do you love to hate more. Joffrey or Ramsey Bolton?

Batman the Dark Knight vs the recent one?

Sure a lot of these characters are grittier but still. Now do you see my point? Do you like the face or the tweener since someone earlier in the thread used face/heel. How about heel/heel then.

Vader or Kylo
Kylo or Thrawn(canon)
Kylo or Thrawn (legends)
Daala (legends) or Rae Sloan (the Disney one is better here BTW)
Phasma or Boba Fett?

Or

Jaina Solo (legends) vs Rey
Mara Jade (legends) vs Rey
Asajj Ventress Vs Rey
Ahsoka Tano vs Rey

 

[GreyLord]

It's hard to say who hardcore fans are or who non-hardcore fans are.

I'll put me in the non-hardcore fan...

I'd say for MOST casual fans The Last Jedi is a disaster. After seeing it most are...meh. There's nothing really left. The New Sequel Trilogy has destroyed the Original Trilogy down past the foundations...there's just about nothing left. There was no success from the Original Trilogy that the New Sequels seemingly have not undone.

Meaning...what's the point anymore anyways?

The biggest disaster is NOT the hardcore fans tearing the movie apart. It is NOT an inconsistency of the past or present, and it is NOT people arguing about various things regarding canon or not canon.

The Biggest disaster is that the casual movie goer doesn't really care anymore. They aren't really interested. It is that they are more...meh...towards Star Wars today than they were two years ago.

This entire meh...has been reflected in sales outside of the movies. Toy Sales are down (and the most concerning to me in ways which are bothersome) and I am NOT blaming the Toy company on this one. They did their job. Some speculation on the release timing...but that timing would have been fine if attitudes hadn't shot down.

It's not oversaturation of the market or some ridiculous thing like that. Toy sales are pretty good for Marvel toys in general...and they released FAR more movies in the past 3 years than Star Wars has. If anything had oversaturation...it would be Marvel at this point. Marvel simply shows that if you write movies in a way that caters to fans and draws kids to want to play with the toys...they will.

One problem with TLJ is that most of the toys weren't cool. What I mean is that those bombers...not exactly something that inspires kids to play with them...the same goes for those new Speeders (I'm not sure what they are called....they are the idea of the Snow Speeders from Empire...but have a ski don't look as slick).

Diversity has nothing to do with it. The movie just did not resonate with their core audiences as well as it should have. It was probably a pretty good movie as movies go, but for those that would buy Star Wars merchandise and go to more Star Wars movies...probably not so great.

I'd say the brand may be in DEEEEP trouble right now. I'd also say Disney is in a wait and see mode. CAN Abrahms resurrect it once again? He's pretty good at bringing brands back or ensuring that they are viable. I think there are many holding their breath right now. If this movie flops...I'm thinking it may be shelved as a movie series for a while and relegated to TV via streaming.

If it is a success...it depends on how much IX is a success. Can it resurrect diving sales of merchandise? Will it equal or make more than The Last Jedi. Predictions are all over the place. Some say it may be a bomb...others say it stands a good chance of at least making a few hundred million more than The Last Jedi.

I think a LOT depends on fan perception of the trailer coming out (hopefully less Aladdin and more Frozen 2) and a LOT is riding on how IX does at the theater. Solo was a warning that the brand may need some work...IX will be confirmation on where it actually currently stands. Hopefully they do all the right things with IX and make it so that the casual fans find interest to spend money on toys, merchandise...and of course...tickets...when IX comes out.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's hard to say who hardcore fans are or who non-hardcore fans are.

I'll put me in the non-hardcore fan...

I'd say for MOST casual fans The Last Jedi is a disaster. After seeing it most are...meh. There's nothing really left. The New Sequel Trilogy has destroyed the Original Trilogy down past the foundations...there's just about nothing left. There was no success from the Original Trilogy that the New Sequels seemingly have not undone.

Meaning...what's the point anymore anyways?

This entire meh...has been reflected in sales outside of the movies. Toy Sales are down (and the most concerning to me in ways which are bothersome) and I am NOT blaming the Toy company on this one. They did their job. Some speculation on the release timing...but that timing would have been fine if attitudes hadn't shot down.

It's not oversaturation of the market or some ridiculous thing like that. Toy sales are pretty good for Marvel toys in general...and they released FAR more movies in the past 3 years than Star Wars has. If anything had oversaturation...it would be Marvel at this point. Marvel simply shows that if you write movies in a way that caters to fans and draws kids to want to play with the toys...they will.

One problem with TLJ is that most of the toys weren't cool. What I mean is that those bombers...not exactly something that inspires kids to play with them...the same goes for those new Speeders (I'm not sure what they are called....they are the idea of the Snow Speeders from Empire...but have a ski don't look as slick).

Diversity has nothing to do with it. The movie just did not resonate with their core audiences as well as it should have. It was probably a pretty good movie as movies go, but for those that would buy Star Wars merchandise and go to more Star Wars movies...probably not so great.

I'd say the brand may be in DEEEEP trouble right now. I'd also say Disney is in a wait and see mode. CAN Abrahms resurrect it once again? He's pretty good at bringing brands back or ensuring that they are viable. I think there are many holding their breath right now. If this movie flops...I'm thinking it may be shelved as a movie series for a while and relegated to TV via streaming.

If it is a success...it depends on how much IX is a success. Can it resurrect diving sales of merchandise? Will it equal or make more than The Last Jedi. Predictions are all over the place. Some say it may be a bomb...others say it stands a good chance of at least making a few hundred million more than The Last Jedi.

I think a LOT depends on fan perception of the trailer coming out (hopefully less Aladdin and more Frozen 2) and a LOT is riding on how IX does at the theater. Solo was a warning that the brand may need some work...IX will be confirmation on where it actually currently stands. Hopefully they do all the right things with IX and make it so that the casual fans find interest to spend money on toys, merchandise...and of course...tickets...when IX comes out.

This person gets it. TFA I wanted to see the next one, yeah Rey was a bit OP but it was fun. TLJ not so much.

Stopped buying SW merch after the Disney buyout. Mine was mostly comics and novels, not action figures. Just didn't want to go through it again and took a wait and see approach and the Aftermath Trilogy basically confirmed it (compared with the Thrawn Trilogy).

Nuke the old EU sure can't really make a new movie out of it. Replace it with something worse erm no thanks. I would have nuked the post Endor stuff and cherry picked some of the old EU for the new canon mostly KotOR stuff and some of the prequel books like the Vader and Darth Bane/Plageius books. People seemed to like them and it would not interfere with the new movies.

I'll probably go see IX regardless, but I watched TFA 3 times at the theatre and paid to rent it online as well.