Not your average HIDE questions

[dpkress2]

I have a pretty good grasp on how the hide action works in combat so I don't want to get into a big debate on it, but I do need a couple clarifications:

1.) On their turn if a creature takes the hide action to make a stealth check, when does the passive perception of other creatures kick in? If a creature's passive perception beats the stealth roll does the stealth immediately fail? Or does the passive perception not kick in until the passively perceiving creatures turn?

2.) If your stealth roll beats everyone's passive perception and subsequently beats everyone's active attempts to perceive you (using an action to make a perception roll) how long do you stay hidden? My guess would be you stay hidden indefinitely, and do not have to keep taking the hide action round after round until you reveal yourself OR another creature uses an action to make a successful perception roll.

3.) If a creature is invisible (or in darkness, or heavily obscured) AND hidden. Does a standard perception check (passive or active) fall into the "anything that relies on sight fails automatically" rule? Or can creatures rely on hearing and smell to use their perception in an otherwise normal fashion. I might say a human (elf, dwarf, whatever) could roll normally using hearing but NOT smell because humans aren't not known for their acute sense of smell. For example if a human had the deafened condition in this same situation, the perception check would automatically fail.

Follow up to that: Keen hearing or smell: If a creature is invisible (or in darkness, or heavily obscured) AND hidden. Does a creature with keen hearing or smell still get advantage on their perception checks?

 

[Hriston]

1. A creature's passive Perception is effective immediately in combat barring the DM ruling that it's distracted.

2. You stay hidden until you are noticed or you stop hiding.

3. No. Not being seen clearly is a precondition for hiding, so pretty much all Perception checks to notice a hiding creature rely on other senses.

Follow up: Yes.

 

[dpkress2]

Thanks for the answers! I'd still like to see a couple more answers to number 1.
Still seems fishy. How about this?

If there is creature with a passive perception that beats the stealth roll and passive perception kicks in IMMEDIATELY that effectively makes the stealth check fail automatically, but ONLY to the passively perceiving creature. Can the passively perceiving creature IMMEADIATELY point out to everyone where the creature attempting to hide is? Or do they have to wait until their turn?

And to clarify your answer on question 3. If a creature has the blinded AND deafened conditions. They can still make a perception check per the normal rules to spot a hidden creature relying on smell alone?

And I guess here is question 4:
When a creature successfully perceives a hidden creature, they know EXACLTY what square they are in, correct? Even if they are invisible, in darkness, or heavily obscured?

 

[DEFCON 1]

1.) On their turn if a creature takes the hide action to make a stealth check, when does the passive perception of other creatures kick in? If a creature's passive perception beats the stealth roll does the stealth immediately fail? Or does the passive perception not kick in until the passively perceiving creatures turn?

I really just wanted to say something about this specific point-- I'd recommend you not think of it as stealth "failing". If you take the Hide action, you *are* stealthed. Regardless of what number your check ended up being. Rather... the number just tells you how well you are stealthed and hidden.

It is an important distinction, because whether you are noticed/seen by other people has nothing to do with you. You can be noticed by some people, and not noticed by others. If an enemy has a high passive perception, that specific person might know where you are... but another one with a low passive might not. You could almost think of it as being "hidden" and "not hidden" at the same time-- which is why I say don't fall into the trap of thinking it as a pass/fail idea. Your PC doesn't pass or fail when they take the Hide action, its the people trying to find your PC that pass or fail. They either notice you or they don't.

What this means though... is that while you are hidden, if you choose to make an attack the next time your action comes up, you can possibly get advantage if you choose the right target, or NOT get advantage if you choose a wrong one. Choose a target whose passive perception is lower than your DEX (Stealth) check? Congrats! You get advantage! Choose the one whose PP is higher (and thus they know where you are?) Sorry, no advantage. Thus it behooves you after your PC has made their DEX (Stealth) check to keep a good eye out for how the enemies react on their turns. Because what the DM has them do will give you a better shot at recognizing which enemies did notice your PC and which ones didn't, thus making your target selection better for getting advantage.

 

[dpkress2]

Yes, I understand that. And this is a very good point...

What this means though... is that while you are hidden, if you choose to make an attack the next time your action comes up, you can possibly get advantage if you choose the right target, or NOT get advantage if you choose a wrong one. Choose a target whose passive perception is lower than your DEX (Stealth) check? Congrats! You get advantage! Choose the one whose PP is higher (and thus they know where you are?) Sorry, no advantage. Thus it behooves you after your PC has made their DEX (Stealth) check to keep a good eye out for how the enemies react on their turns. Because what the DM has them do will give you a better shot at recognizing which enemies did notice your PC and which ones didn't, thus making your target selection better for getting advantage.

I might be in the best in the best interest for an enemy to not reveal that they notice the hidden creature to "Fake them out" I guess.

At which point can the noticing creature warn their allies or point out the hidden creature? Immediately? Or on their turn?

 

[iserith]

Thanks for the answers! I'd still like to see a couple more answers to number 1.
Still seems fishy. How about this?

If there is creature with a passive perception that beats the stealth roll and passive perception kicks in IMMEDIATELY that effectively makes the stealth check fail automatically, but ONLY to the passively perceiving creature. Can the passively perceiving creature IMMEADIATELY point out to everyone where the creature attempting to hide is? Or do they have to wait until their turn?

Technically, the creature can only communicate on its turn (PHB, p. 190), so it cannot point out the hidden PC. But I've honestly never seen that enforced in practice. That said, even if the hidden PC is pointed out, he or she is still hidden as long as the requirements for hidden are met - not clearly seen and not heard.

And to clarify your answer on question 3. If a creature has the blinded AND deafened conditions. They can still make a perception check per the normal rules to spot a hidden creature relying on smell alone?

The rules are unclear here. Being hidden only requires not being clearly seen or heard. The issue of smell is not discussed. The Search action in combat, however, leaves open the possibility of finding the hidden PC "depending on the nature of your search." The DM would need to make a ruling here. If the PC stinks or the monster doing the smelling has a good sense of smell, I would say it's fine in general.

And I guess here is question 4:
When a creature successfully perceives a hidden creature, they know EXACLTY what square they are in, correct? Even if they are invisible, in darkness, or heavily obscured?

Yep.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

1.) On their turn if a creature takes the hide action to make a stealth check, when does the passive perception of other creatures kick in? If a creature's passive perception beats the stealth roll does the stealth immediately fail? Or does the passive perception not kick in until the passively perceiving creatures turn?

If you roll a 12 and enemy A has 11 passive perception and enemy B has 13 passive perception, then you are hidden from A but not from B.
You won't become hidden for B at all.

2.) If your stealth roll beats everyone's passive perception and subsequently beats everyone's active attempts to perceive you (using an action to make a perception roll) how long do you stay hidden? My guess would be you stay hidden indefinitely, and do not have to keep taking the hide action round after round until you reveal yourself OR another creature uses an action to make a successful perception roll.

Don't make the mistake to think that "hidden" is some kind of status change you get when you beat ALL passive perceptions. It's a "per enemy" check. See my example above.

Taking that example, you are hidden from A until:
- You come out of hiding and approach the target
- You are seen clearly
- You make noise
- You attacked and hit or missed a target
- The DM determined that whatever you just did revealed your current position

There's no time limit, but you are only hidden in the context you made the roll for.

For example a guard comes down the hallway and you try hide from him and roll a 25. You aren't spotted. But that doesn't mean you can now walk through the whole dungeon as much as you want without a risk of being spotted unless something has a passive perception of 26 or higher. Typically you would be asked to roll again if stealth is required in a new situation.

3.) If a creature is invisible (or in darkness, or heavily obscured) AND hidden. Does a standard perception check (passive or active) fall into the "anything that relies on sight fails automatically" rule? Or can creatures rely on hearing and smell to use their perception in an otherwise normal fashion. I might say a human (elf, dwarf, whatever) could roll normally using hearing but NOT smell because humans aren't not known for their acute sense of smell. For example if a human had the deafened condition in this same situation, the perception check would automatically fail.

Well, the difference between being unseen and hidden is mainly that being hidden means the DM doesn't tell you the exact position where the hidden person is standing. Hiding successfully also means that you are unheard (moving silently and generally not making any noise that would reveal your position).

However, this is often something that the DM simply determines. Someone uses his sense of smell to determine where the enemy is? I might tell him "You can tell he must be somewhere around there.", then the attacker still needs to guess the position, but the chance to guess the right spot might be much higher or even 100% (e.g. if there's only one reasonable to spot to hide at in that area).

If someone actively tries to spot a target by seeing or hearing, that would consume an action and I'd ask for an active perception roll. If result is higher than passive perception, this applies.

Follow up to that: Keen hearing or smell: If a creature is invisible (or in darkness, or heavily obscured) AND hidden. Does a creature with keen hearing or smell still get advantage on their perception checks?

Say a person has 11 passive perception and keen hearing or smell. You try hiding:
0-11 - Nothing changes.
17+ - Hidden from the person (not seen and not heard).
12-16 - Sight check failed but person could still hear or smell the target. You aren't really hidden if you are still heard.

Usually the trick here is to see the +5 bonus to only apply to some parts of the perception check. And then you can check what the specific rule says. Does it only talk about seeing or about perceiving or about seeing and hearing, etc.

 

[dpkress2]

Technically, the creature can only communicate on its turn (PHB, p. 190), so it cannot point out the hidden PC. But I've honestly never seen that enforced in practice. That said, even if the hidden PC is pointed out, he or she is still hidden as long as the requirements for hidden are met - not clearly seen and not heard.

Does this mean a creature pointing out a hidden character is mechanically meaningless? Perhaps if the creature is pointed out, other creatures who did not initially perceive the hidden character could get advantage on their perception check.

The rules are unclear here. Being hidden only requires not being clearly seen or heard. The issue of smell is not discussed. The Search action in combat, however, leaves open the possibility of finding the hidden PC "depending on the nature of your search." The DM would need to make a ruling here. If the PC stinks or the monster doing the smelling has a good sense of smell, I would say it's fine in general.

I figured as much about this one. I would probably rule that a human, elf, dwarf, would fail automatically (maybe get disadvantage) but a animal would not.

 

[iserith]

Does this mean a creature pointing out a hidden character is mechanically meaningless? Perhaps if the creature is pointed out, other creatures who did not initially perceive the hidden creature could get advantage on their perception check.

Pointing out the hidden creature's might be useful, such as for targeting an AOE spell. As far as imparting advantage on someone else's Search action, it depends on the circumstances, but that sounds like a Help action to me (keyword being "action").

 

[Rya.Reisender]

If there is creature with a passive perception that beats the stealth roll and passive perception kicks in IMMEDIATELY that effectively makes the stealth check fail automatically, but ONLY to the passively perceiving creature. Can the passively perceiving creature IMMEADIATELY point out to everyone where the creature attempting to hide is? Or do they have to wait until their turn?

You can tell your allies immediately where the enemy is (Edit: Okay Iserith is correct, you can only communicate on your turn by the rules.), but the enemy will still be hidden from them (unseen and unheard).

It's not too relevant in actual play as you cannot react to what's been said until it's your turn. And on your turn you can usually simply walk around some obstacle to see the enemy clearly and auto-end hiding.

As for controlling monsters - I think usually it's more reasonable for them to attack the threat in front of them rather than bothering with finding that one guy hiding around.

And to clarify your answer on question 3. If a creature has the blinded AND deafened conditions. They can still make a perception check per the normal rules to spot a hidden creature relying on smell alone?

No. Definitely not. If you cannot hear and cannot see, everybody is hidden from you. You can still guess a location based on smell, though.

And I guess here is question 4:
When a creature successfully perceives a hidden creature, they know EXACLTY what square they are in, correct? Even if they are invisible, in darkness, or heavily obscured?

Yeah, if your perception beats their stealth, then you know the exact location of the enemy.