Not your average HIDE questions

Oofta

Legend
Something I disagree with that I've seen on a pretty regular basis is the statement that if you are not hidden by having made a stealth check that everyone knows where you are.

There is nothing in the rules that states that. It may be true in most cases, but unlike a previous edition that shall not be named it's not a universal rule. If someone is not seen and you have no other way of detecting them (significant noise, visibly affecting the environment) there is no reason to believe you know where they are.
 

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Something I disagree with that I've seen on a pretty regular basis is the statement that if you are not hidden by having made a stealth check that everyone knows where you are.

I would phrase it the opposite way: if no-one knows where you are then you are hidden. A roll is simply one way (of many) to change from "someone knows where you are" to "no-one knows where you are".

For example, an invisible, silenced, flying creature is hidden because no-one knows where they are (or even that they are there in the first place). No need for a DEX roll or a WIS roll.
 

Oofta

Legend
I would phrase it the opposite way: if no-one knows where you are then you are hidden. A roll is simply one way (of many) to change from "someone knows where you are" to "no-one knows where you are".

For example, an invisible, silenced, flying creature is hidden because no-one knows where they are (or even that they are there in the first place). No need for a DEX roll or a WIS roll.

The word "hidden" implies that there has been a stealth roll involved at some point. In addition in 5E there is no hidden "status" per se, and there is no requirement to make a stealth role to be undetected. In other words if A cannot be detected by B then A is hidden from B but may not be hidden from C. Perhaps A made a stealth check to hide from B but C never lost sight of him. Then again you could also say that nobody knows where D is because they're on the other side of the continent.

I don't say that Bob Smith from Scranton PA is "hidden" from me simply because I don't know where he is. In the same way, if there's an invisible stone golem standing quietly in the corner not moving and not revealed by any environmental factors then that golem never needs to make a single stealth check. As a DM I simply rule there is no reasonable way to detect them.
 

The word "hidden" implies that there has been a stealth roll involved at some point.
I disagree. If someone or something is hidden from me, it simply means they are concealed, obscured or covert from me.

That may or may not have involved an ability check, which may or may not have been DEX\Stealth.
 

If there is creature with a passive perception that beats the stealth roll and passive perception kicks in IMMEDIATELY that effectively makes the stealth check fail automatically, but ONLY to the passively perceiving creature. Can the passively perceiving creature IMMEADIATELY point out to everyone where the creature attempting to hide is? Or do they have to wait until their turn?

You have it backwards. Passive Perception doesn't beat stealth. Passive Perception sets the DC for Stealth. So if the Hider fails to make the DC (Passive Perception), they fail to hide.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I have a pretty good grasp on how the hide action works in combat so I don't want to get into a big debate on it, but I do need a couple clarifications:

1.) On their turn if a creature takes the hide action to make a stealth check, when does the passive perception of other creatures kick in? If a creature's passive perception beats the stealth roll does the stealth immediately fail? Or does the passive perception not kick in until the passively perceiving creatures turn?

I believe the standard rule is if the Passive Perception is greater, they automatically notice the hidden creature. However, our DM uses it for what it is: passive. Basically, say your Passive Perception was 20 and an goblin is hiding with a check of 18. Since your passive score is higher, our DM TELLS you to make a check since your instinctual perception might pick up on something even if you as a player don't declare you are looking. If your Passive Perception was 15 against the goblin's 18, the DM won't tell you to make a check unless you specify you are actively looking for a hidden creature, etc.

I like this house-ruling since otherwise my character with a Passive Perception of 23 would notice just about everything all the time. While her score is great, I think it is more realistic that I am giving more chances to notice something when the DM tells me to roll, but it isn't automatic. Plus, it makes Observant work better. Remember, a feat like Observant improves your Passive scores, but not your active. So, if the DM tells me to make a check, I am only rolling +8, but my passive is +13.

2.) If your stealth roll beats everyone's passive perception and subsequently beats everyone's active attempts to perceive you (using an action to make a perception roll) how long do you stay hidden? My guess would be you stay hidden indefinitely, and do not have to keep taking the hide action round after round until you reveal yourself OR another creature uses an action to make a successful perception roll.

We play until you move, cast a spell, or attack. If you act in any other way that makes noise (like trying to whisper to someone nearby) or causes movement like Using an Object, another check is required and contested.

3.) If a creature is invisible (or in darkness, or heavily obscured) AND hidden. Does a standard perception check (passive or active) fall into the "anything that relies on sight fails automatically" rule? Or can creatures rely on hearing and smell to use their perception in an otherwise normal fashion. I might say a human (elf, dwarf, whatever) could roll normally using hearing but NOT smell because humans aren't not known for their acute sense of smell. For example if a human had the deafened condition in this same situation, the perception check would automatically fail.

I suppose it depends on your hidden subject, are they also moving or remaining still/quiet? Why are they rolling stealth? The visual part seems covered due to the conditions, so most likely they are really trying to remain quiet. If that is the case, the perception checks would be normal since hearing is not being blocked as well.

Follow up to that: Keen hearing or smell: If a creature is invisible (or in darkness, or heavily obscured) AND hidden. Does a creature with keen hearing or smell still get advantage on their perception checks?

It can be a bit odd since sight and hearing are lumped into one check now, and sometimes our DM has us make a check for each sense separately. As I noted earlier, the hidden part is immaterial due to the conditions, so I am pretty sure our DM would still grant advantage on a perception check to hear or smell a target if a creature has Keen Senses.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
And I guess here is question 4:
When a creature successfully perceives a hidden creature, they know EXACLTY what square they are in, correct? Even if they are invisible, in darkness, or heavily obscured?

Yes, but remember unless they have a way to actually see the invisible, in darkness, or heavily obscured creature, any attack made against them is with disadvantage.
 

Graylion2018

Explorer
Don't forget that advantage and disadvantage alter passive values by +/- 4 or 5, I think I have seen both used in examples. So if you have disadvantage on passive perception of 15 your passive perception is 10. For example stealth vs a single sleeping opponent. GM "may" grant Mr stealthy a stealth roll at Advantage ok maybe passive disadvantage or maybe both.
 

Graylion2018

Explorer
Also on the topic of stealth and passive perception. I think passive values were created as a GM mechanism so players could roll and the GM could keep the values secret as to if they hide or dont hide. It is only partially successful, I used to secret roll players stealth or used a pregens roll list so they are unaware until actions, clues and responses roll in. Usually I kept a list of 20 or 40 pregened d20' for this.
 

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