Keep On The Borderline

Aldarc

Legend
The thing about Keep on the Borderlands is that it is intended to be an environment that you need to make your own.

This is the key to B2... its not a quest type adventure, it is an environment that has no clear goal but leaves it up to the group to make of it what they will.
I agree with your post here, and I believe that these are the primary points that I would like to highlight. I think that it lends itself well to both Sandbox and Story-Now play. I seem to recall that [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] has a campaign diary somewhere about him running KotB with either Dungeon World or Burning Wheel.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
The problem with the statement that "Keep on the Borderlands" is a great module because you can make it your own is that the same can be said of absolutely every adventure. There isn't an adventure out there that can't be filled out, clarified, rearranged or rewritten into a great adventure.

Claiming that an adventure is great because you can make it your own is equivalent to claiming that a game's rules have no problems because you can always house rule them.

I have no problem with the idea that you ought to make a module your own. If you read through my posts on the boards you'll find that I consistently advise new DMs that no module really should be run out of the box without prep.

What I have a problem with is the idea that something is good because it needs more prep and DM input than usual, and especially when that module is included in a box set for a "basic game".

[MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION]: I put it to you that something is suited well for Sandbox and "Story Now" play, if and only if it is internally coherent. B2: Keep on the Borderlands is not internally coherent out of the box. It is in fact one of the least internally coherent modules ever published. Can it be made internally coherent? Sure, but only with great effort and imagination.

By internally coherent, I mean that a player is rewarded for imagining the environment and making assumptions based on the environment, because there is an underlying reality being simulated. But B2 in fact does not describe a setting with an underlying reality. It describes a setting which is largely incomprehensible and which requires major acts of subcreation to turn into anything which actually made sense, like explaining what motives the tribes have for living in close proximity despite hating each other, or explaining what economic activity allows the situation described to continue (how do the tribes eat, get drink, obtain weapons, pay for goods), or explaining really how the caves came to be in the first place. Why does each tribe occupy 'cave area' that seems to only have rooms suited to their needs and little or no extraneous rooms? Who built the caves and why? Etc.

As such, B2 does not support either Sandbox or "Story Now" play. All the answers to the questions are "Because it is a game." What it actually supports is only "Step on Up" game centered play, and while there is nothing wrong with that, the game it creates of taking down the different tribes is largely repetitive and uninspired.

So for "Story Now", I've always found that term to be ridiculous. Here is the official take on it by "The Forge":

"Story Now requires that at least one engaging issue or problematic feature of human existence be addressed in the process of role-playing. "Address" means:

• Establishing the issue's Explorative expressions in the game-world, "fixing" them into imaginary place.
• Developing the issue as a source of continued conflict, perhaps changing any number of things about it, such as which side is being taken by a given character, or providing more depth to why the antagonistic side of the issue exists at all.
• Resolving the issue through the decisions of the players of the protagonists, as well as various features and constraints of the circumstances."

So, after all that Sokal affair word salad, what is "Story Now"? Depending on how you interpret that load of crap its everything or nothing.

Seriously, B2 as a module is meant to address "one engaging issue or problematic feature of human existence"? Seriously? Which one is it? How does the map of B2 fix that idea in the game world, and really is even having a map a "Story Now" concept? Isn't B2 really addressing Basic's limited range of published content (practically ever monster in the basic set appears at least one, as does practically every magic item), dropping them into a kitchen sink environment, and setting up the players to obtain the XP and treasure they need to level up? Any "problematic feature of human existence" you end up addressing will be tangential to the design and content of the module. You might invent one, but it won't be found in text itself. In no fashion does the module really even meaningfully set up an ideological conflict between Law and Chaos. The players choices are almost certainly going to address things like, "Left or Right?" in a dungeon where left or right have a different outcome, but not a side or purpose you can meaningfully choose. There may be stratagems and role-play that take place, but it won't be addressing story in the sense that "Story Now" means (to the extent that I allow it means anything at all).
 
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pemerton

Legend
I seem to recall that [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] has a campaign diary somewhere about him running KotB with either Dungeon World or Burning Wheel.
The two times I've used B2, the Keep itself has always been a bigger focus of play than the Caves. And in my BW game, when I ended up using the evil temple in my game it was not in the Caves near the Keep, but rather in the catacombs beneath the town of Hardby.

Here're the play reports.
 

The problem with the statement that "Keep on the Borderlands" is a great module because you can make it your own is that the same can be said of absolutely every adventure. There isn't an adventure out there that can't be filled out, clarified, rearranged or rewritten into a great adventure.

Claiming that an adventure is great because you can make it your own is equivalent to claiming that a game's rules have no problems because you can always house rule them.

I have no problem with the idea that you ought to make a module your own. In fact, if you read through my posts on the boards you'll find that I consistently advise new DMs that no module really should be run out of the box without prep.

What I have a problem with is the idea that something is good because it needs more prep and DM input than usual, and especially when that module is included in a box set for a "basic game".

I actually disagree with this statement. The more detailed and precise an adventure is, the harder it is to make it your own. Take, for example, the current crop of WoTC adventures for 5E. These are so detailed with story elements and narratives, and plots that it is harder to make a change... because I have to reconcile any change I make with the exacting detail of the adventure. Something I change in the first chapter, can possibly have a dramatic effect on the later chapters. Add to this, that I have to read the entire (massive) book to understand the adventure, before I make the adjustments I want to make... These require much more prep.

It is easier to modify and adjust an adventure that has less moving parts and less detail.

Also, the DM input required of Keep on the Borderlands is the 'good kind'. It provides the stats and stocks the dungeons. It gives you details that are mechanically important and tedious to come up with on your own. What it leaves open to interpretation is what you should be doing on your own (and in a "basic game" is part of the lessons in teaching new DM's).

The act of figuring out what is going on in these caves is, at least in my opinion, the primary lesson to be learned from the module.
 

Aldarc

Legend
[MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION]: I put it to you that something is suited well for Sandbox and "Story Now" play, if and only if it is internally coherent. B2: Keep on the Borderlands is not internally coherent out of the box.
Your self-indulgent ranting aside, I believe that your central thesis reflects your own play preferences (particularly in regards to simulationist play) and opinion more than anything else.
 

Celebrim

Legend
[3D][/3D]
Your self-indulgent ranting aside, I believe that your central thesis reflects your own play preferences (particularly in regards to simulationist play) and opinion more than anything else.

In other words, I wrote a whole essay worth of questions, but rather than address any of them, you're going to say, "Well, that's just your opinion man." Nor are you going to attempt to counter my assertions. Ok, fine. Consider the rest of this "self-indulgent" rant addressed to someone that wants to talk.

What isn't my opinion is that even the evidence you site, such as pemerton's game that name drops the keep, bears little relationship to the text and the game he is playing doesn't even require the text. He doesn't really treat the Keep as a site based adventure, but is running a character driven and event based adventure. By his own admission, the Caves which are so central to the text, plays very little role in the adventure he actually made. Even NPCs which are very loosely drawn from the text such as the cleric who is an evil spy, on whom the adventure lavishes comparatively large attention, do not have the motivations or behavior in pemerton's hands that they have in the text.

What he may be running is a good game, but what he isn't running is "B2: Keep on the Borderlands" except in name. And this is what I tend to find about people who defend the module. They aren't actually defending the module. They are defending the unique game that they ran which the module played a comparatively small role in. In pemerton's case, the size of this role is extremely small. There is a Keep, and a Bailiff, and an evil cleric, but of the two sessions of play almost none of it is drawn from the text. A generic map of a Keep would have served him just as well, but as with most 'urban adventures' even the map could have probably been dispensed with, since urban adventures tend to occur on a single stage and the GM tends to just change the drapes between scenes.

Now, there could be a really interesting discussion of the processes and inputs that lead people to not play the game provided according to the text of it, and how those other processes developed them as DMs, and why they still reference the Keep - [MENTION=6859536]Monayuris[/MENTION] suggests that for him the Keep gives him the part of a game that is tedious to come up with which is interesting. But defending a module by saying that it is good for what not is in it, and that in play they made little use of what is in it and a lot of use of what is not, is not defending the module.

My play preferences are not so clear cut as all that - for one thing I deny the categories of simulationist/gamist/narrativist and the primary tenets of the GNS big theory framework that surround them. My ongoing campaign featured bits and pieces of 'Of Sound Mind' (in a game world without 'psionics'), 'The Whispering Cairn' (as an adventure location for 6th level characters), 'Mad God's Key' (with no Greyhawk specific lore), and 'The Isle of Dread' (with almost no content from the original module beyond the general setting). But why would I attempt to defend the quality of those modules by saying I didn't run them according to the text, that I altered them extensively, and that in some cases large portions of the module's plot simply didn't pertain to play as it happened in my game? Instead, I can defend those modules based on what is in the text, as modules that provide important instruction and good varied play if played as written, and which can also in more experienced hands be mined for useful content and played in ways the writer's couldn't have imagined.
 

Aldarc

Legend
[3D][/3D]
In other words, I wrote a whole essay worth of questions, but rather than address any of them, you're going to say, "Well, that's just your opinion man." Nor are you going to attempt to counter my assertions. Ok, fine.
The point of my post was not to debate Forge terminology, merely to point to the fact that KotB has been used for such purposes and its open-endedness. So, yes, most of your "essay" was irrelevant hot air. I would suggest engaging me using cogency over verbosity.

Furthermore, if you wish to debate how [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] ran KotB, then I would advise you to discuss the matter with the appropriate person.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I actually disagree with this statement. The more detailed and precise an adventure is, the harder it is to make it your own.

I can see why you'd think that, but in my experience I don't have that problem.

Take, for example, the current crop of WoTC adventures for 5E.

I wish you wouldn't, if only because you are now debating based on evidence that I'm not familiar with. I've read little of the 5e modules, and so I'm out of my depth discussing them. But, of the three that I paid the most attention to, the rebooted Ravenloft, the Underdark sited based adventure, and the Chult/Acererak themed horror adventure, all three seemed to be things that you could easily mine for content or adapt to your game. None of them seemed like the sort of game that compelled you to run it in a certain way. I'd suggest as evidence, if you asked 20 different groups that had played the module to describe the events of their campaign, you'd get 20 different sequences of events.

Something I change in the first chapter, can possibly have a dramatic effect on the later chapters. Add to this, that I have to read the entire (massive) book to understand the adventure, before I make the adjustments I want to make... These require much more prep.

I would argue that you have to read any adventure a couple of times to even run it as intended, much less to alter it. The argument you make here though is strange, in that you are siding with B2 on the basis of its lack of content. That is to say, because B2 isn't particularly massive, and doesn't really plan to occupy the participants in the game for as long as the big 5e hard backs or carry them through as many levels and as many adventures, that it's better because it takes less prep. I can fully agree with you that B2 requires less prep to run than a full campaign book, even if you turned B2 into some sort of mini-campaign. But I don't see how that defends the text. It may defend the style of adventures that are smaller and less interconnected and so are better for more episodic play, and I might be entirely on board with that preference after having spent 8 years running an adventure path of my own design, only to frequently mourn that the structure of an adventure path tends to limit a player's choices simply because an adventure path provides a massive motivation to players to continue pursuing it as a primary goal - for most of those years the player's were convinced that the bad guys were making a 'destroy the world' doomsday device. The more episodic smaller adventures allow greater freedom to pursue player goals and make leisure uses of downtime, something I've come to miss (not because it's better, but just because it would be different than the fare I've been running).

It is easier to modify and adjust an adventure that has less moving parts and less detail.

I'm not sure I agree, simply because I've pulled modules out that have plenty of moving parts and adapted and 'sandboxed' them (at least in a narrow-broad-narrow framework).

Also, the DM input required of Keep on the Borderlands is the 'good kind'. It provides the stats and stocks the dungeons. It gives you details that are mechanically important and tedious to come up with on your own. What it leaves open to interpretation is what you should be doing on your own (and in a "basic game" is part of the lessons in teaching new DM's).

This is in my opinion the most interesting thing that you say, as it I think provides a unity between what everyone is saying about the module in this thread. I think the heart of what everyone is saying could in some way be found in this statement, and to the extent that I think it's just my opinion whether it is a bad module, or just someone's else's opinion as to whether it is a good module, the answer to why can be found in this statement. The heart of your statement is to say that, for you, there are certain sorts of content you find hard to create. You'll note that in this thread, and even more explicitly in other threads regarding B2, the heart of my argument has always been that B2 provides content which is easy to create. Both of us are saying that the module is valuable, or not valuable, based on our perception of what sort of content is valuable. I've frequently said that B2 is a 'atavistic' module that harkens back to more primitive dungeon designs that was thrown together quickly by Gygax to meet a deadline with little in the way of creativity on display, and that I'd expect any decent 15 year old DM to do about as well. It's far from the complexity and depth that you see from modules created in a parallel time frame by Jaquay or the Hickmans, or even really compared to some of Gygax's older work. It does for low HD demi-humans what the G series does for giants, only throwing the whole bunch of minitribes together willy-nilly in a small location.

But this assessment is based on an assumption of what is easy to create and therefore less useful, which I fully concede could vary from person to person. So if you are willing to go into more detail, I'd love to know exactly what you mean by details that are tedious to come up with, and what parts of the text that you both retained and found central to your play, and what things you find very easy to create.

The act of figuring out what is going on in these caves is, at least in my opinion, the primary lesson to be learned from the module.

I personally feel this argument would be bolstered if the text itself emphasized that. But truth is, the text of X1 spends more time talking about how import the act of figuring out what is going on on the island, at least as it pertains to how to hook the PC's into going, what they are expected to do their, and how they might set their own goals upon reaching the island. And I'd also argue that X1 has been more successful in spawning versions of itself, probably most deeply in the 'Savage Tide' adventure path, but reoccurringly over the years as it has been revisited in publication.
 
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