Ability Score Rebalancing

[Xeviat]

I'd like to discuss ability scorebalance, and what could be done to bring them closer together. AllAbilities grant Ability Checks and Saving Throws; balancing these isa separate discussion. Almost all abilities grant +to hit/damage/DCsfor, so the balance of these will not be considered, as mostcharacters are going to put their highest stat in their class'sattack stat; class attack stat kind of just forces certain classes tocertain things. I may look at coupling this with changes to spellsand monsters to utilize all saving throws a bit more, instead ofhaving common and uncommon saves (this is a separate discussion,though to preview I'm thinking about dynamic saves where you get tochoose between two ability score to save with which could change theeffect).


First, how does 5E define the abilityscores, and what do they do other than attack, checks, and saves?


Strength: Measures physical power
Dexterity: Measures agility
Constitution: Measures endurance
Intelligence: Measures reasoning andmemory
Wisdom: Measures perception and insight
Charisma: Measures force of personality


Strength

• Carrying Capacity
  
• Jump Distance
  
• Heavy Armor allowance

Dexterity

• AC (limited by medium and heavy armor)
  
• Initiative (this is really just a kind of Dex check)

Constution

• Hit Points and Hit Dice rolls
  
• Length of time to hold breath

Intelligence

• ?

Wisdom

• ?

Charisma

• ?

+2 to an ability score is worth a feat.For most characters, though, +2 to an ability score is only reallyworthwhile for their class's Attack stat, their class's potentialsecondary stat, and Constution; light or no armor characters may alsofavor Dex because of the importance of Dex saves.


+2 to an ability score bundles togetherit's potential attack/damage/dc increases, along with saves, checks,and its fixed benefits. Lets pretend all skills checks and saves areequal for a second (which is a separate, but related, discussion).


Toughness is considered an okay feat.It gives +2 hp/level, double part of Constitution's core function. +2Con is +1 hp/level, +1 con checks, +1 con saves, and +1 to a fewrandom things (like length of time to hold breath).


Alert is a feat that grants +5 toinitiative (a very specific use of Dex checks), and grants protectionfrom surprise and some advantage. Both sides of those seem even tome.


So, I'd like to add some non savingthrow/check/spell-casting functions to Int, Wis, and Cha.


Intelligence is easy. I think it shouldgrant skill proficiencies and possibly languages. 1 feat grants 3skill proficiencies, or +1 Int, 3 languages, and the ability to writeciphers; languages are clearly valued less than skill proficienciesin this regard. Perhaps 1 skill proficiency and 1 language perIntelligence modifier? Going by the “Toughness is a fair feat”angle, if 3 skill/tool proficiencies is worth a feat and 4 languages(lets count cyphers as a secret language) is worth half a feat … ifa full feat is worth 2 points, then a skill/tool proficiency is worth0.66 points and a language is worth 0.25. Together, those are worth0.91 … or close enough to 1 for me to not complain. (Interestingly,backgrounds value tool proficiencies and languages the same).


But what should Wisdom do? What arethings wise characters should be better at than unwise characters?Things that aren't checks or saves. What is tied to thisarchetype/trope? Perhaps the ubiquity of Perception/PassivePerception checks is what Wisdom does, but I don't like that and Ifind that to be more of an argument of making some functions ofPerception part of Wisdom saves. If I was constantly running horrorgames, I'd have Sanity tied to Wisdom, but I don't think that's rightfor all D&D games.


What about Charisma? Part of me feelslike Inspiration might be the right angle here. The charasmaticcharacters often come across as lucky characters. I'd consider givingcharacters Cha mod+1 inspiration points per long rest. I may alsoretool the lucky feat.


Now, most characters currently probablyhave between an 8 and a 12 intelligence. Looking at past charactersat my table, 8 and 10 was very common for people not playing aWizard, Eldritch Knight, or Arcane Trickster. So, most characterswould end up with the same amount of skills they currently have, orat least be disincentivized from taking an 8 Intelligence.


But, this does mean the Wizard would begetting +3 skill proficiencies, and Eldritch Knights and ArcaneTricksters would be picking up 1 or 2 more. These would grow withlevel as stats were increased. As I've spoken about in anotherthread, I want to expand what skills can do so non-casters feel moreversatile, and part of that would be requiring spellcasters to haveskills that functionally do nothing other than facilitatespell-casting. 3E's spellcraft and concentration skills sort ofworked this way. So I'll be thinking about doing this very thing.


What are your thoughts? Mostimportantly, what might you add to Wisdom?

 

[Fenris-77]

Hmm. Well, you could treat Wisdom in a similar fashion and just split the skills into two lists. The line between INT and WIS is murky at best, but I think you could probably get two lists together that made sense.

On the Perception side of things you could always brew up a rule that lets you use WIS to save versus surprise or even make it a second option for initiative. Reflexes, which is what DEX represents, do help with reaction time, obviously, but WIS is the been there, seen it, now I'm ready for it half of things. Conceptually a rule something like that fits in pretty well with how D&D treats WIS as a stat.

Another idea, mentioned above, is to remove Perception from the skill list and make it just an ability or check tied to WIS, much like Initiative is tied to DEX. As an ability that everyone has you can monkey around with adding layers to it. Personally, I think it's too ubiquitous to really be a skill like the other skills anyway. You could replace it with a different skill or skills that are more specific in scope and application. This would stack well with the idea that high WIS could also provide additional skills like INT does in your model above.

That was all a little "throw stuff at a wall" but that's what I got off the top of my head.

 

[Yaarel]

Deleting Constitution and Wisdom from existence fixes everything!

 

[DND_Reborn]

Well, if you are looking for things for the non-physical ability scores "to do" you sort of took the long way to say that.

But seriously...

We use Intelligence mod as bonus language, skill, tool, or kit, valuing each equally. Yeah, I know they aren't quite equal, but 5E is also about simplicity so we stick with that. If you dump INT with an 8, you lose a language, skill, too, or kit. We also have languages as INT skills so the DM can require an Intelligence (Language) check. You automatically have Expertise in your native languages.

Wisdom modifier could be used as favor from the gods or something? Like inspiration but represents your connection to fate, karma, nature, or whatever. Maybe you could add it so often to your d20 roll for an attack or save? Something like once per short or long rest? You could even add it after the roll but before the results, so if you think you JUST missed or failed, your WIS bonus might turn failure into success.

Charisma also use to limit how many followers/henchmen you could have and modified their loyalty to you. The Charisma modifier could work in a similar way, maybe 1 + Charisma mod for how many henchmen. Also, your Charisma bonus could add to henchmen's checks/saves for loyalty and morale.

For spellcasters you could grant bonus spell level slots equal to the spellcasting ability score modifier per long rest. This would definitely boost spell ability at lower levels and add a perk even at higher levels. Alternatively, allow the modifier to count as restored spell slots during a short rest (not to exceed your maximum). For example, a WIS 16 would allow a Cleric to regain 3 spell levels worth of slots, say like a first and a second or a single third, etc.

Finally, we house rule Initiative can be modified by DEX, INT, or WIS... not just DEX. So a really smart person is more likely to go early due to tactical advantage of smarts and reacting to the situation. A really wise person has a better understanding of the situation, motives, etc. so gets the chance to act a bit faster, too.

That's all I have for now.

 

[Yaarel]

People have been trying to balance the six abilities for roughly 50 years. The six are just bad design.

 

[DND_Reborn]

People have been trying to balance the six abilities for roughly 50 years. The six are just bad design.

LOL at yet people keep using them. Personally, other than DEX being a bit overly useful in combat, I've never had an issue with balance per se. But if you think they are bad, what would you suggest?

 

[Eubani]

I would think about removing Wisdom and adding Perception and Soul. Ranged attacks can key off perception, divine magics and quite a few magic saves would use Soul and initiative can choose between Intelligence, Dexterity or Perception. Perception as a stat makes more sense and frees up a skill slot as almost everyone tries to get Perception as it is a near guaranteed scene to scene check.

 

[Yaarel]

I would think about removing Wisdom and adding Perception and Soul. Ranged attacks can key off perception, divine magics and quite a few magic saves would use Soul and initiative can choose between Intelligence, Dexterity or Perception. Perception as a stat makes more sense and frees up a skill slot as almost everyone tries to get Perception as it is a near guaranteed scene to scene check.

‘Perception’ = Intelligence
‘Soul’ = Charisma

 

[FrogReaver]

... sense and frees up a skill slot as almost everyone tries to get Perception as it is a near guaranteed scene to scene check.

But that's only because people are crazy. Perception is vastly overrated in 5e. Though that's probably a discussion best had elsewhere.

 

[FrogReaver]

[MENTION=57494]Xeviat[/MENTION] I think that basing more on ability scores only serves to grant classes that use that ability score as their primary attack stat those abilities at the expense to other classes. At that point you would be better off just baking the bonus into the classes based on those ability scores than on the ability score itself.

For example. Your intelligence adding extra skills breaks things for me personally.
#1 I don't believe intelligence has anything (or at least very little) to do with athletics or sleight of hand etc. - that is to say many skills aren't dependent on intelligence in the slightest so why would it be the general stat that boosts number of skills
#2 It's just a straight up buff to Wizards and any other class that is incentivized for boosting intelligence. Whatever you do for strength or dexterity or wisdom or charisma would also be as well for those respective classes.

What's the danger I see? You are going to be too tempted to have stats modify things they shouldn't. That's part of the reason you are struggling come up with what to let each stat affect, because outside basic combat capabilities/ specific class abilities / relevant skill checks /relevant saving throws, they really shouldn't be affecting anything else. In other words, let the classes drive the game. Ability score interactions should be very basic and very parallel unless a class ability bases something special on an ability score.