D&D 2E 2e, the most lethal edition?

[Sacrosanct]

Whenever the lethality of editions are discussed, typically it's usually OD&D is the most, then AD&D 1e, then B/X, then 2e, then 3e, then 5e, then 4e. That seems to be the most common breakdown people do when rating the editions (it's how I would have done it by memory). However, when looking at the rules, it seems 2e just might actually be the most lethal edition. (Yes, I know any edition can be lethal depending on the DM, but this is factoring RAW, all else being equal).

Here is my argument (only comparing OD&D-2e, as we all can agree that 3e, 4e, and 5e rules are not as lethal as previous editions (removal of save or die, increasing ability scores, powers gained at almost every level, assumption of increased magic items, etc):

OD&D: All characters had 1d6 hp (fighting men got a bonus at varying levels), and all weapons did 1d6 damage. Abilities were generated by rolling 3d6 in order. A typical monster level 1 PCs faced were orcs (AC 6, 1d6 damage, 1d6 hp). The ancient red dragon had AC 2 and 66 hit points breath weapon was current hp. You died at 0 hp.

B/X: Hit die varied from 1d4 to 1d8, depending on race/class. bonus to hp only came from a Con bonus. All weapons did 1d6 damage (variable damage was optional). Abilities were rolled 3d6 in order. A typical monster level 1 PCs faced were orcs (AC 6, 1d6 dmg, 1d8 hp). The ancient red dragon had AC-1 and 104 hp, breath weapon was current hp. you died at 0 hp.

1e: Hit dice increased for some classes, ranging from 1d4 to 1d10 (rangers got 2d8 at 1st level, and monks got 2d4 at first level). Weapons did variable damage. Default ability score generation was 4d6 drop lowest. You could go to -10 hp before dying. Typical monster level 1 PCs faced were orcs (AC 6, 1d8 dmg, 1d8 hp). Ancient red dragon was AC -1, 88 hp, breath weapon was current hp.

2e: HD from 1d4 to 1d10, ability score default was 3d6 in order. if you took more than 50 points of damage in one hit, you had to make a save or you died. you died at 0 hp. Typical monster for level 1 PCs was the orc (AC 6, 1d8 hp, dmg 1d8). Ancient red dragon (AC-3, HD: 23(avg 103 hp) breath weapon was 24d10+12 (avg 146)

Looking at those comparisons and factoring how much damage a PC could take vs how many hp they had (and what average ability scores would be), it appears 2e is the most lethal edition. Then B/X. It surprised me that 2e went back to the default 3d6 in order. I had to do a double take when reading that. But yep, it was. B/X is almost exactly like OD&D (both had d6 weapon damage as standard), but monsters went from a d6 for hit dice to a d8. And iconic higher level monsters were tougher (the B/X dragon was more deadly than both OD&D and 1e).


So...when ranking the editions by lethality, it goes 2e>B/X>OD&D>1e>3e>5e>4e


Hmmm....discussion?

 

[jaelis]

Wasn't 2e the one where the monster manual was a three ring binder? Those things can give a nasty pinch, so I agree, most deadly

 

[the Jester]

Whenever the lethality of editions are discussed, typically it's usually OD&D is the most, then AD&D 1e, then B/X, then 2e, then 3e, then 5e, then 4e. That seems to be the most common breakdown people do when rating the editions (it's how I would have done it by memory). However, when looking at the rules, it seems 2e just might actually be the most lethal edition. (Yes, I know any edition can be lethal depending on the DM, but this is factoring RAW, all else being equal).

Interesting assertion! Let's see...

OD&D: All characters had 1d6 hp (fighting men got a bonus at varying levels), and all weapons did 1d6 damage. Abilities were generated by rolling 3d6 in order. A typical monster level 1 PCs faced were orcs (AC 6, 1d6 damage, 1d6 hp). The ancient red dragon had AC 2 and 66 hit points breath weapon was current hp. You died at 0 hp.

B/X: Hit die varied from 1d4 to 1d8, depending on race/class. bonus to hp only came from a Con bonus. All weapons did 1d6 damage (variable damage was optional). Abilities were rolled 3d6 in order. A typical monster level 1 PCs faced were orcs (AC 6, 1d6 dmg, 1d8 hp). The ancient red dragon had AC-1 and 104 hp, breath weapon was current hp. you died at 0 hp.

So far so good...

1e: Hit dice increased for some classes, ranging from 1d4 to 1d10 (rangers got 2d8 at 1st level, and monks got 2d4 at first level). Weapons did variable damage. Default ability score generation was 4d6 drop lowest. You could go to -10 hp before dying. Typical monster level 1 PCs faced were orcs (AC 6, 1d8 dmg, 1d8 hp). Ancient red dragon was AC -1, 88 hp, breath weapon was current hp.

Hold on a sec.

I'm at my girlfriend's house so I don't have my early-edition material handy, but I don't think that's all correct.

First of all, I'm pretty sure that default ability score generation was 3d6 in order. There were additional options for it in the DMG, and I think 4d6 drop 1 arrange to taste was one of those.

Second, death at -10 was an optional rule in the DMG. By default, you were dead at 0. I had multiple 1e pcs die at 0 because of this.

2e: HD from 1d4 to 1d10, ability score default was 3d6 in order. if you took more than 50 points of damage in one hit, you had to make a save or you died. you died at 0 hp. Typical monster for level 1 PCs was the orc (AC 6, 1d8 hp, dmg 1d8). Ancient red dragon (AC-3, HD: 23(avg 103 hp) breath weapon was 24d10+12 (avg 146)

Ah, yes, death by massive damage!

That was an optional rule in the 1e DMG, too, IIRC- but I believe that 2e planted it firmly in default rules territory.

Well, despite my quibbling about 1e rules, making massive damage a core rule alone puts 2e above 1e in lethality. Combine that with the powering up of dragons, giants, and fiends, and I have to agree with your evaluation. Which really surprises me- I never think of 2e as being extra deadly. But there you have it.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Hold on a sec.

I'm at my girlfriend's house so I don't have my early-edition material handy, but I don't think that's all correct.

First of all, I'm pretty sure that default ability score generation was 3d6 in order. There were additional options for it in the DMG, and I think 4d6 drop 1 arrange to taste was one of those.
.

Is surprised me too when I double checked. But yes, Method I in 1e was 4d6 drop lowest. In 2e, Method I went back to 3d6 in order.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

I remember that thing. Every time I had to open it up to add or remove a sheet, images of me impaling my hand through the webbing with it danced in my head.

Considering 2e pretty much had most of the save or die checks from 1e and added death by massive damage on top of them, I can’t say I’d dispute that claim.

Wasn't 2e the one where the monster manual was a three ring binder? Those things can give a nasty pinch, so I agree, most deadly

 

[LordEntrails]

When it comes to lethality to characters their are several factors. One of them are default rules. Another is optional rules. Then of course you have house/table rules. You also have attitude/personality of the DM and players. With the DM obviously (?) dominating the tone.

So let's break that down to a few factors/abbreviations;
- RAW
- Other Rules
- People

It seems blatantly obvious to me that the most significant, by far, like a factor or 10 that "People" is more significant than "Other Rules". And "Other Rules" is more significant to lethality than "RAW".

Am I wrong?

If not, then any discussion about lethality that ignores the most significant factor is ... of limited applicability in a wider sense isn't it? And since we all know people very widely, are, we going to try and rank people by character lethality? If so that's a very different discussion than this one.

 

[Sacrosanct]

When it comes to lethality to characters their are several factors. One of them are default rules. Another is optional rules. Then of course you have house/table rules. You also have attitude/personality of the DM and players. With the DM obviously (?) dominating the tone.

So let's break that down to a few factors/abbreviations;
- RAW
- Other Rules
- People

It seems blatantly obvious to me that the most significant, by far, like a factor or 10 that "People" is more significant than "Other Rules". And "Other Rules" is more significant to lethality than "RAW".

Am I wrong?

If not, then any discussion about lethality that ignores the most significant factor is ... of limited applicability in a wider sense isn't it? And since we all know people very widely, are, we going to try and rank people by character lethality? If so that's a very different discussion than this one.

Which is why I said this:

(Yes, I know any edition can be lethal depending on the DM, but this is factoring RAW, all else being equal).

I'm evaluating the editions on how they were designed and written, as that's the only fair way to do a comparison. And I don't think that's limited in application at all. In fact, that's the only way to do it fairly. Saying 5e is more lethal than 1e because you had a 5 DM who was brutal and a 1e DM that gave everything to the players they wanted and never put them in danger, is what would make it a bad analysis.

 

[Jer]

First of all, I'm pretty sure that default ability score generation was 3d6 in order. There were additional options for it in the DMG, and I think 4d6 drop 1 arrange to taste was one of those.

(This is one of my pet bugaboos, so I'm going to jump on my horse over here which is very high).

No, actually, it wasn't. In fact in the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide, Gary Gygax explicitly says something along the lines of "do not use 3d6 in order, you mostly generate awful characters and it turns new players off the game because they don't get to play the characters they want". He then went on to give out 4 better methods of generating stats that you could choose from. He practically begged people to not use 3d6 down the line.

Method I in the original 1e DMG is 4d6 drop the lowest arrange to taste.

To this day the fact that 2e went back to 3d6 in order as the first one they list confounds and irritates me. Because it's terrible - it's a fine method of generating stats for a game where the stats barely matter (OD&D and B/X D&D average stats mean nothing, bad stats mean a penalty to XP) but it's a terrible method of generating stats for a game where the stats are important (AD&D - where your choice of race and class is gated by how you roll the dice).

Gygax understood this, and I've always wondered if the reason why it was the first method listed in 2e was just for historical reasons, or if the guys putting together the second edition just did not understand prob and stats well enough to get why using 3d6 down the line means that either most of the classes in your book are useless, or your players are going to inevitably cheat at rolling up stats (like the guys I knew who played 2e and would generate 50 characters to find the one set of stats they wanted and then play that one).

 

[Sacrosanct]

Gygax understood this, and I've always wondered if the reason why it was the first method listed in 2e was just for historical reasons, or if the guys putting together the second edition just did not understand prob and stats well enough to get why using 3d6 down the line means that either most of the classes in your book are useless, or your players are going to inevitably cheat at rolling up stats (like the guys I knew who played 2e and would generate 50 characters to find the one set of stats they wanted and then play that one).

To their credit, I think they realized this. This is what they said in the 2e DMG re: Method I:

Method I Disadvantages: First, some players may consider their characters to be hopelessly average. Second, the players don't get many choices.
Using method I, only luck enables a player to get a character of a particular type, since he has no control over the dice. Most characters have little choice over which class they become: Only one or two options will be open to them. You might let players discard a character who is totally unsuitable and start over.

 

[Umbran]

Hmmm....discussion?

I think 3e may be the most deadly edition. I mean, in terms of, say, if it fell on you from out of a tree, the sheer mass of the published materials would crush you. 2e had a lot too, but much of it was softcover, which hurts less.