D&D General Do armor proficiencies make sense?

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
While I enjoyed reading most of your post and agree with much of it, there are two issues I will address:

Padded armor wasn't meant to be "armor" in any real sense. It represented the padding normally worn under the more substantial armors.

This is completely untrue. Padded armor, or the gambeson, aketon, padded jack, etc. (by whatever name) was certainly meant to be used as an armor and preceded the armors that later were layered over it (hence, the arming doublet/shirt). It is an excellent and very effective armor, simple to manufacture and repair. Foot soldiers used varieties of this form of armor for centuries in cultures all over the world.

Now, on a separate topic, someone her discussed the idea of adding INT bonus to armor class.

As my Sensei once said to me, "If you have to think about it, you're too slow." I mean, if Int was applicable then the ners in sholl wouldn't have had anything to worry about when a football player was in a bad mood.

Anybody ever see that happen? I never did. Smart guys tended to lose those encounters, unless they were truly smart. As in, smart enough to run away before the "encounter" got started.

Yeah, I wouldn't really advocate the INT replacing DEX, but I can understand how a player could try to justify it.

Sure, a lot of fighting is the muscle memory you build and learn to react and fight without thought, but in a magical-fantasy world such as most D&D games, who knows what a Wizard could do with his INT??? ;)
 

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BigBadDM

Explorer
Its almost like saying you have to learn how to wear clothes.

I get where you are a coming from. Of course it is a game mechanic. But even then, a helmet would take at least some proficiency wouldn't you say? Otherwise you can extrapolate this to swords. Just swing it around. In most cases a helmet comes with armor and fighting in such takes some skill....Or figure it is like when you get super glue on your fingers--it's still fingers but feels all wrong. Or a jock strap. There is no rule that says a wizard can't wear plate armor, they can. It just 'feels' weird and makes it hard to be 'normal'

Stealth penalties are usually over blown

This penalty is usually to balance the 'scouts'. I have never seen a rogue or ranger want to sneak around with dis adv on stealth. It's not about when you are sticking around with the party. Well, that's how I always viewed it.

A Wizards robes might allow them
to use Intelligence instead of Dex for defense

But does that make 'ability' sense. I mean Einstein can be out there knowing all the ins/out of where to be hit for minimal damage, but in practicality Einstein would still be hit hard. This is almost akin to your 'how to wear clothes' argument.

I can understand Wisdom being applied to AC and for some classes it is. INT doesn't make sense unless one is trying to balance ACs across class for the sake of making them equal.
 

Shiroiken

Legend
The concept of armor proficiency makes sense, but I don't like the current set up at all. I'd rather a setup where each armor is its own proficiency, working down a list, such as the following:

Leather Armor (AC: 12+Dex) - Leather & Studded Leather
Padded Armor (AC: 13+Dex (+4 max)) - Padded & Hide
Body Armor (AC: 14+Dex (+3 max)) - Breastplate & Chain Shirt
Mail Armor (15+Dex (+2 max, 0 min), Stealth Disadvantage) - Scale, Chain, & Ring
Banded Armor (AC: 16+Dex (+1 max, 0 min), Stealth Disadvantage) - Splint & Banded
Plate Armor (AC: 17, Stealth Disadvantage) - Plate

Everything Maxes out at AC 17, so none of them are "best," but the heaver armors allow you to ignore a dex penalty at the cost of Disadvantage to Stealth (which you'll likely suck at anyway). Rogues and Warlocks would just get Leather Armor. Barbarians and Druids would get Leather and Padded. Bards and Rangers would get up to Body Armor. Clerics would get up to Mail Armor. Fighters and Paladins would get everything (or possibly up to Banded, with Plate coming later).

The Armor Profiency Feats would have to be expanded, of course, with Shields being added with Body Armor or Mail Armor.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Hi. I'm an armorer of sorts. That is, I teach classes in how to make chain armor, usually at Renaissance Faires.

Padded armor wasn't meant to be "armor" in any real sense. It represented the padding normally worn under the more substantial armors.

Chain's main purpose is to turn a cutting edge into a blunt collision. If the chain is all you're wearing then instead of being hit with a sword or axe it's more like getting hit with a crobar or sledgehammer. And nobody likes getting hit with a crowbar or sledgehammer.

So the padding is meant to soften the blow. Now considering that the heavier armors were more common in England (a cold country) and northern Europe, wearing an extra layer of sheepskin or a vest that looks like a double layer mover's pad wasn't going to give you problems from the heat.

Chain has the odd property: As it pulls dow longer, it draws out narrower. Over the course of a day you can feel it pressing in on your ribs, and it actually can impair your breathing. Sleeves don't fit your arms well. They can't taper towards the wrist because you hand has to be able to fit all the way down. Further, the other side of that "longer means narrower" thing is that, if you're holding your arm out at all then gravity will pull it wider, and thus shorter. I can easily see how baggy steel sleeves could be a problem when casting spells.

Scale and Banded armors are similar to chain in many ways, but the "longer=narrower" thing isn't there, and it's generally less flexible.

Now the only plate you'll ever want to wear is a set that's fitted to you, and fitted well. Properly done, the weight ends up resting on your hips more than anywhere else, so yes it's not bad to ride in. But keeping your balance when on foot, and someone's swinging at you? That takes skill and practice (i.e. armor proficiency.)

If you do fall down, do you know how to get up, quickly? It isn't easy, and yes there's a skill to it. Again, armor proficiency.

Now consider dancing in any of these. That's the best way to characterize fighting in the stuff, as you advance, dodge sideways or backwards, duck and recover. And on most battlefields that's on uneven ground. and the better the armor, the more top-heavy you are. If the armor includes leggings (the difference between "Chain Shirt" and "Chain Armor") then your legs are heavier and a bit harder to lift. Easier to trip or stumble when engaging in that dance.

I've seen the videos of people in chain, scale, plate etc doing shoulder rolls, running, mounting a horse and so on, and they make it look easy. I know from experience that it isn't. Those people had a lot of practice and more than a little training. Their armor had to be properly fitted, or even custom made, for them to do that. (With plate or breastplate the armor may have had two or three trips back to the smith for adjustment and refitting.)

If you've ever ridden a horse you'll recall how high your foot has to go to reach the stirrup. It's almost chest high on most people. Now think about doing that while wrapped in protective steel worn over a full snow suit. (the padding). Next, from that contorted position that has poor leverage, hoist your weight up with that one leg. And remember how much the armor weighs. You have to be strong to heft yourself and plate armor or even just breastplate up from that position.

D&D says that a person can put on "light armor" like a chain shirt in a minute. If all you're doing is pulling the shirt on, think more about six seconds. It's a straight pull over. But putting it on for battle means putting that padding on and cinching it to a good fit, then adding the armor, then adding a belt to take some of the weight off your shoulders, so it doesn't pull down/in and make it harder to breathe. Knowing how to arrange the whole rig is also part of "proficiency".

Finally, remember that the armor is presumed to include gloves or gauntlets of some sort. Leave those off before a battle and your friends end up calling you "stumpy". Now try to move your arms like a ballet dancer, to emulate the arm movements needed for the somatic part of spell casting. Hold and manipulate the material components just right, while wearing those gloves.

Alternatively, unstrap the gloves (they have straps and buckles that secure them to your wrists), while wearing gloves, before each spell, then secure them in place again. You'll get spells off every two, maybe three rounds, at best.


Yeah but realistic armor would be a total buzzkill for any kind of fantasy storytelling. Almost as much of a buzzkill as realistic warhammers. (Mjolnir FTW!) . So I'll stick with my imaginary version.

Now, on a separate topic, someone her discussed the idea of adding INT bonus to armor class.

As my Sensei once said to me, "If you have to think about it, you're too slow." I mean, if Int was applicable then the ners in sholl wouldn't have had anything to worry about when a football player was in a bad mood.

Anybody ever see that happen? I never did. Smart guys tended to lose those encounters, unless they were truly smart. As in, smart enough to run away before the "encounter" got started.

So, as someone who has some knowledge in the area, armor proficiency makes perfect sense. But it shouldn't be in light, medium or heavy armors. It should be by specific armor types. At least if you're chasing "realism".

Adding Int bonus to AC makes as much sense as adding Cha bonus to ranged attack rolls.

Which is to say, if it makes the game more balanced and fun, it makes total sense.
 

BigBadDM

Explorer
Leather Armor (AC: 12+Dex) - Leather & Studded Leather
Padded Armor (AC: 13+Dex (+4 max)) - Padded & Hide
Body Armor (AC: 14+Dex (+3 max)) - Breastplate & Chain Shirt
Mail Armor (15+Dex (+2 max, 0 min), Stealth Disadvantage) - Scale, Chain, & Ring
Banded Armor (AC: 16+Dex (+1 max, 0 min), Stealth Disadvantage) - Splint & Banded
Plate Armor (AC: 17, Stealth Disadvantage) - Plate

One of the key ideas of 5e is to keep things streamlined. Now you have 6 different classes of armor with different dex modifiers. You are starting to get into Pathfinder territory (or 3.5e).
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
But does that make 'ability' sense.
A wizard did it.... literally is the first answer.
Fast predictive thinking



Subsequently we talk about how a slow thinking indecisive but flexible nimble fingered character gets high initiative ;) Where as a guy with strong muscles and fast mind and agressive personality gets low initiative because he cannot dance or type
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
You know, I could more support and understand a feature/feat that would allow you to use your INT instead of DEX for AC, the idea being you are calculating expected attacks and moving to avoid them instead of simply "reacting" via DEX.

A similar logic is present in the Unarmored Defense of Monks and Barbarians. WIS is used via "insight" into your opponent, CON is for your stamina and using your ability to absorb some blows (similar to how armor actually protects you). Both could be viable by you ability to go with the blow to avoid its impact.

Having studied martial arts, I can easily understand the logical arguments for any of them.
You get it.

Also back in the day I thought to hit being tied to Strength was funny ... I now take it as simply a style feature with other options being also on the table.
 

Sure, a lot of fighting is the muscle memory you build and learn to react and fight without thought, but in a magical-fantasy world such as most D&D games, who knows what a Wizard could do with his INT??? ;)
Cast a spell that grants them magical armour perhaps? 🧙‍♂️

A wizard did it.... literally is the first answer.
Fast predictive thinking

I see that as an experienced (probably Rogue) character using a dirty trick to gain surprise over their opponent and performing a sneak attack represented by a rapid sequence of hits. Possibly two rounds worth (winning initiative + surprise).

Also back in the day I thought to hit being tied to Strength was funny ... I now take it as simply a style feature with other options being also on the table.
It makes more sense when you realise that Strength in 5e is about athleticism and being able to generate force rather than being musclebound.
Grace and reflexes might help avoid attacks or getting caught at disadvantage, but you need to exert force on your weapon, not just to cut through armour or into your opponent, but also to control the weapon in rapid striking or changes of direction.
(Insofar as you can split abilities into offensive and defensive rather than both being a combination.)
 

Coroc

Hero
Armor
AC​
SpecialStealthmin STR
Price (Silver)
Acheton (Linen Armor)
Light 11​
10​
Padded Armor
Light 12​
20​
Elven Chain Shirt+1
Light 16​
Mithril
(50000)​
Brigandine
Medium 13​
Max. +3 Dex
Min. 10
50​
Breatplate
Medium 14​
Max. +2 Dex
Min. 12
100​
Chain shirt
Medium 14​
Max. +2 Dex
Disadv.​
Min. 12
500​
Half Plate
Medium 15​
Max. +2 Dex
Disadv.​
Min. 14
400​
Three quarter plate
Heavy 17​
Max. +1 Dex
Disadv.​
Min. 16
600​
Full plate
Heavy 19​
No Dex mod.
Disadv.​
Min. 18
800​
 

Coroc

Hero
Armor
AC​
SpecialStealthmin STR
Price (Silver)
Acheton (Linen Armor)
Light 11​
10​
Padded Armor
Light 12​
20​
Elven Chain Shirt+1
Light 16​
Mithril
(50000)​
Brigandine
Medium 13​
Max. +3 Dex
Min. 10
50​
Breastplate
Medium 14​
Max. +2 Dex
Min. 12
100​
Chain shirt
Medium 14​
Max. +2 Dex
Disadv.​
Min. 12
500​
Half Plate
Medium 15​
Max. +2 Dex
Disadv.​
Min. 14
400​
Three quarter plate
Heavy 17​
Max. +1 Dex
Disadv.​
Min. 16
600​
Full plate
Heavy 19​
No Dex mod.
Disadv.​
Min. 18
800​
This is the houserule I use for my Renaissance Tech but w/o Firearms Greyhawk campaign atm.

Note: There is no leather or studded leather nonsense, the pricing is appropriate. Elven chain is a magic item you cannot buy these. Plate armor has to be bodyfitted. Chain shirt is more expensive than Half plate bec. it requires more work to make it.

The different values for plate result off the fact, that almost no one uses a shield anymore, if they do it is:

Shield
AC Bonus
Special​
Str req,
Price (Siler)
Heavy Cloak
1​
variable​
Fist buckler
2​
10​
Lanternshield
2​
Light 20m​
30​

Also Renaissance full plate is very sophisticated and very protective but it has a high Str requirement

Feel free to steal for your campaign
I made something similar for weapons, war machines and other equipment maybe I will post it in a thread
 
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