What is the essence of D&D

[Garthanos]

Letting players buy them is probably another one (3E and 4E).

except I am pretty sure players having the magic items they wanted in 4e did not have anything like the same impact as in 3e or some other editions It's just not even comparable, unless you have completely different reasons. For instance - Buy as many healing potions as you like in 4e unless the DM was enabling those super special fountain of youth whatevers (that he made up himself) they were only useful for triggering healing surges quickly -> not for having infinite healing.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Ummm @TheCosmicKid, perhaps actually addressing the point rather that get upset about a single sentence might be more productive?

I mean there’s a whole wall of text there with considerable supporting evidence. Getting twisted up in a single line seems a little pointless.

Addressing the wall of text is pointless when the real issue is the one raised by the single sentence. I could point out that Tony Vargas cherry-picks his evidence by dismissing alternative objections to 4E with no more than a handwave and a label of "outright nonsense", as though objections that don't make sense to him must not be sincere or genuine or coherent to the person making them. I could point out that he rules out 4E's presentation and its defense system as potential explanations by noting that they also exist in other editions, but then turns around to argue that the nonmagical healing is a potential explanation despite also existing in another edition. I could pull out all the old debate club tricks, but it wouldn't matter, because all of these are just symptoms of the underlying problem: he is demonizing the players who killed 4E.

 

[Zardnaar]

except I am pretty sure players having the magic items they wanted in 4e did not have anything like the same impact as in 3e or some other editions It's just not even comparable, unless you have completely different reasons. For instance - Buy as many healing potions as you like in 4e unless the DM was enabling those super special fountain of youth whatevers (that he made up himself) they were only useful for triggering healing surges quickly -> not for having infinite healing.

To enable 4E buy what you want mentality they made magic items boring, turns the game into accounting (lots of fun) and rewards powergaming (frostcheese).

Sure some people might find it fun but conceptually it's a bad idea.

Also adds in complexity when people try to marry up class features, powers, feats and magic items.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

@Tony Vargas I think you’re 180 degrees off when you say that the range of play in dnd is narrow compared to other games.

You can play almost literally anything in dnd with an amount of work relative to how “fantasy” it is.

I’ve played modern low fantasy with 5e rules and used so little homebrew that I didn’t even have to put together a document to keep it all straight. Same deal (played or seen others playing) Weird West, political intrigue, heists and capers, team of investigators in a futuristic megatropolis, literally Shadowrun, alternate 1630’s magic school for magical swashbucklers with a homebrewed “magical parkour rugby on roofs” sport, final fantasy, knights of the romanticized chivalrous age, and more.

Most other games are purpose built for a narrow range of stories. DnD 5e particularly is a toolbox whose classes and races are geared toward fantasy. That’s about as narrow as dnd 5e is, and tbh the other editions aren’t much narrower.

 

[S'mon]

except I am pretty sure players having the magic items they wanted in 4e did not have anything like the same impact as in 3e or some other editions It's just not even comparable, unless you have completely different reasons. For instance - Buy as many healing potions as you like in 4e unless the DM was enabling those super special fountain of youth whatevers (that he made up himself) they were only useful for triggering healing surges quickly -> not for having infinite healing.

Yeah, 4e pre-Essentials certainly worked fine with free crafting or purchase of items; it was designed that way. The main issue was that to maintain balance, apart from the + items, they tended to be very weak especially the combat items.

 

[Garthanos]

To enable 4E buy what you want mentality they made magic items boring,

There was never enough cash around with a 20 percent buy back for a "buy what you want mentality" in the games typical play, I wonder where that idea came from oh yes I suspect it wasnt generally from actual players more likely someone making massive assumptions . I am sure a generous DM might want it to happen. And low level items did become very accessible when you were bouncing around the planes approaching demigod status. (That is so horrible shudders)

I personally like the hero to be more significant and more awesome than his toys. That said... one might want an Elric or Arthur. For instance if I want to use my feat to make my intelligent sword now provide me trained history tadah its pretty trivial to adjust where you flavor/perceive resources and character abilities. Or King Arthur can attribute his new ability to knock his enemy prone as being a function of Excalibur to forcing submissive responses in enemies.

 

[Zardnaar]

There was never enough cash around with a 20 percent buy back for a "buy what you want mentality" in the games typical play, I wonder where that idea came from oh yes I suspect it wasnt generally from actual players more likely someone making massive assumptions . I am sure a generous DM might want it to happen. And low level items did become very accessible when you were bouncing around the planes approaching demigod status. (That is so horrible shudders)

I personally like the hero to be more significant and more awesome than his toys. That said... one might want an Elric or Arthur. For instance if I want to use my feat to make my intelligent sword now provide me trained history tadah its pretty trivial to adjust where you flavor/perceive resources and character abilities. Or King Arthur can attribute his new ability to knock his enemy prone as being a function of Excalibur to forcing submissive responses in enemies.

If you have the cash you can basically buy what you want. They even made a ritual for it.

 

[Garthanos]

Sure some people might find it fun but conceptually it's a bad idea. Also adds in complexity when people try to marry up class features, powers, feats and magic items.

Opinions I disagree with yours more often than not.... making magic items too significant I think sucks a high level fighter without a bloody artifact was a sidekick it reached obvious levels in 3e.

 

[Garthanos]

If you have the cash

Ignores actual game economy where the hell do you think the "cash" came from.... LOL

 

[Garthanos]

20 percent return rate... LOL ... buy anything you want... mentality LOL