What is the essence of D&D

[lowkey13]

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[Tony Vargas]

Just pointing out that you may not notice that you are literally and candidly stating that people tell you that you are incorrect, but that you ignore what they say and choose to believe it fits into your theory, regardless of what they said.

sigh No, that's not what I said. Please read that again.

 

[Tony Vargas]

All editions have had disassociated mechanics since OD&D and, inter alia, saving throws?

That is true.
And, it will get you /nowhere/.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

A good friend of mine mused that 4e would probably have been able to find a decent niche as a fantasy action adventure RPG except that it had the D&D label. He thought the game played fine, just different.

A lot of folks say this. It’s weird to me, because for me 3.5 felt less like classic dnd than 4e, and 4e felt about the same as 5e, in terms of how we played it.

There’s a lot going on there. Beyond the class structures bothering people, and the presentation, and the (false but strong) impression that the game didn’t support RP, there are also social dynamics. Folks want to think themselves wholly autonomous, but humans simply aren’t that. Part of our minds live in the social interaction with others. Full stop. How we see the world is informed by our social groups and by our perception of how social groups we don’t like interact with the world, and by all kinds of other social intricacies.

IOW, on top of reasons related directly to the game, things like group expectations, social group critical mass of feeling something is off (a weird sort of social avalanche), etc, turned people off the game.

 

[Oofta]

? Why is this even a conversation?

All editions have had disassociated mechanics since OD&D and, inter alia, saving throws?

There are a lot of things that are simplified or exaggerated in D&D in order to make the game work. If someone tries to club you to death you have AC and HP to counter it. Saving throws represent an instantaneous reflex action.

What I was trying to get at - and may be totally missing the point - is that fighter swings a sharpened bit of steal at something and either does damage or not. The physical act of swinging a sword is directly associated to damaging the target if it connects.

Magic and the supernatural don't work that way. With magic you mumble some words and throw around some smelly components and suddenly there's fire. With barbarians you are calling upon supernatural forces, whether that's a totem or ancestral spirits to aid you in battle.

 

[Tony Vargas]

A lot of folks say this. It’s weird to me, because for me 3.5 felt less like classic dnd than 4e, and 4e felt about the same as 5e, in terms of how we played it.

Though you may not have meant it this way: that is a /ringing/ endorsement of 5e!
How'd you pull it off?

(I don't suppose you used the tactical module?)

 

[Oofta]

the (false but strong) impression that the game didn’t support RP

Once again, stating your opinion as fact. I found that 4E dampened RP ... and honestly I can't really point to a single reason why. All I can tell you is that it was a very common sentiment and something I noticed in my own games. In part it was probably because after low levels combat took so long that it sucked up all the oxygen in the room, and all the time available to play.

Either we were all being mind controlled by the anti-4E illuminati or maybe there's something to it. Since I don't believe in mind control or the illuminati, the simpler solution is just that 4E didn't simply didn't work for a lot of people even if it worked for you.

In any case, it's still just an opinion.

 

[lowkey13]

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[Lanefan]

Nope. I guess it is a common house rule. It's one shot period unless you don't hit your minimum or change your Int. Gaining spells per level doesn't come in until 3e. That's probably another house rule to help out magic-users.

1e DMG p. 39 - "Spells beyond those at start" - "... To those acquired, the magic-user will add 1 (and ONLY 1) spell when he or she actually gains an experience level. ..." - I knew this was in there somewhere.

As for the one-shot-only bit, that only applies to the initial by-level roll-through and not to spells found later on scrolls or in captured spellbooks etc.

So, if during the initial roll-through of 1st-level spells you blew Sleep (or had reached your minimum before even getting to spells starting with 'S') you couldn't learn it then - but if you found it on a scroll later and still had headroom below the max allowable you could copy it into your book and learn it, if the dice were willing.

It's not the clearest of explanations (not unusual for 1e!), but it's in the PH p. 10 under "Intelligence".

 

[Nagol]

There are a lot of things that are simplified or exaggerated in D&D in order to make the game work. If someone tries to club you to death you have AC and HP to counter it. Saving throws represent an instantaneous reflex action.

Except when they don't. The classic "chained to a rock when the dragon breathes on you but you save anyway by huddling in a slight curve you wouldn't have noticed otherwise" is straight from the 1e DMG..

What I was trying to get at - and may be totally missing the point - is that fighter swings a sharpened bit of steal at something and either does damage or not. The physical act of swinging a sword is directly associated to damaging the target if it connects.

Magic and the supernatural don't work that way. With magic you mumble some words and throw around some smelly components and suddenly there's fire. With barbarians you are calling upon supernatural forces, whether that's a totem or ancestral spirits to aid you in battle.

The prep combine with the words and smelly stuff are directly associated with the fire. We can see the correlation even if our brains do not understand the causation beyond "He's a wizard kill him first!" and "Don't let him wave his hands at you!".

I don't know the ancestral barbarian at all, I assume the ancestors get to make decisions (player input goes to them) if the PC and player must become out of sync.