D&D 5E (2014) Is the Wall of Faithless in 5e?

[Iry]

I agree that the wall is a great injustice by our modern standards of morality. But it seems downright devilish to insist that all gods are evil regardless of any other actions.

 

[gyor]

But how in the Hells does “being indifferent to the gods, entire” quality as “the worst of the worst”?

I was refering to worst of the worst among those who were either indifferent to the Gods or false to them.

 

[Zardnaar]

Gods are on a different level than mortals.

Do you let your pets do whatever they like? No well gods are similar with mortals.

Do you let insect infestations do whatever they like in your house?

Well to the gods mortals are somewhere between pets and insects.

The wall is like incentives for mortals. It's like clicker training with treaties.

 

[gyor]

I'm okay that the Wall exists in FR, but maybe that's because I view the FR a bit differently than some. For me, it is an evil of almost Cthulhu-esque proportions. Other posters have already explained why: it prevents non-devout souls from reaching their "destination plane" (as based on alignment), it's a violation of free will ("You must worship us FR gods, or else"), and it's simply degrading. Even if the ultimate "reward" of faithlessness is a painless oblivion, being turned into bricks-and-mortar is quite the dick move. It's the smug deities showing that if you don't serve them one way, you'll serve them in another.

I've played NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer at least 3 times and, every single time, I've sided against Kelemvor. I know it's fruitless, but there's something inherently noble about fighting the impossible fight. It's part of the human condition. Death is inevitable for all of us in the real world, but we keep striving against it. Fighting the Wall, and the gods who would support its existence, gives me some of the same vibe. It's bleak, but I don't necessarily see it as edgelord... unless the author, or some of the audience, think that it's somehow justified or deserved.

I choose not to interpret the Wall as being a deserved fate for atheists, and I certainly don't buy into the fact that it's part of the "deal" (i.e. FR can't exist without gods, so mortals need to do their part). The Time of Troubles proved that the FR can survive just fine without its deities... many of whom are not even worthy of the title, and are simply ascended mortals who got lucky.

Frankly, I revel any time an FR deity dies or is majorly inconvenienced. I kind of despise them all. The Wall is just part of it. There's the Time of Troubles, the Bhaalspawn crisis, everything involving Cyric, the arbitrary ways that the "Chosen" are... chosen... and the stupidly OP abilities they gain. Hey, just because you suck up to Mystra the hardest, you're automatically better than any other mage can ever be through natural talent, or plain ol' hard work. That's inspiring, in a way... it inspires my characters to want to eradicate every Chosen of every FR deity. Bunch of over-rated sycophants.

So, that's my view. I see the Wall's monstrous evil as a feature, rather than a bug. But it's a complicated topic, in part because atheism and agnosticism are real-world belief systems. I don't know how it is in the US but, in NZ, both are standard (and common) census responses here. There are plenty of D&D players worldwide who would list themselves as agnostic/atheist. If I was building a campaign world myself, I probably wouldn't include a statement like: "If your PC is a [real-world belief system or philosophy], all-powerful entities will eventually turn your PC into building supplies and then condemn your soul to oblivion". But maybe that's just me.

Faerun wasn't just fine during the time of troubles, the laws of physics and magic went complexly haywire, and if it went on long enough eventually Toril would not have been able to sustain life.

Anyways they toned the wall down in 5e, there are a hierachy of punishments for being false or faithless depending on severity of falseness and faithlessness.

If you pay lip service to different gods you won't go into the Wall, but will have to guide the dead instead. If you argue the Gods aren't worthy of worship your soul gets turned into a larva or something for example. If your an Ur Priest or actively campaign against the Gods it's the Wall for you.

I had this cool idea that maybe all the souls that have merged into the Wall have caused it to develop a consciousness of it's own, made up of merged minds.

 

[Mecheon]

The wall is like incentives for mortals. It's like clicker training with treaties.

Or a reason for some good ol' fashioned "Kill the gods and shatter their thrones"

 

[gyor]

Or a reason for some good ol' fashioned "Kill the gods and shatter their thrones"

The Gods in FR are not so easy to get rid of. Even if you manage to beat one, they tend to come back, again, and again.

 

[Zardnaar]

Or a reason for some good ol' fashioned "Kill the gods and shatter their thrones"

And in old FR only a god could kill a god short of a demipower.

The few times mortals have done it another god has been involved somehow.

 

[Nagol]

We know from the actual novels that Kelemvor no longer punishes people for having no patron. As long as they have faith in general they go to their alignment plane assuming they pass judgement. But Myrkul did it that way for a long long time.

Of course the average gamer wouldn't know that unless they read the novels, which is a problem with FR having so many. It's like talking about Thrawn with people who only know the movies.

I can’t help that other people can’t let go of the past. It’s a thread about FR in 5e.

There was a whole edition where the wall was just a wall, with no souls embedded in it at all. The thread is about whether that nonsense of souls in the wall came back.

I don’t care what the wall was all about in 2e. Kelemvor is the god of death now, and he is a god with compassion and a sense of fairness and concern for the mortal perspective. In 5e it has come back for reasons, and we are discussing whether that should have happened.

Trotting out 2e lore for justifications isn’t all that helpful. Clearly, it worked fine for the 100+ years that Kelemvor had his way and the wall wasn’t eating “faithless” souls.

Kelemvor was the god of judging the dead In 2E too. I can quote that from the same source as "all without a patron go into the wall", if you like.

 

[Zardnaar]

The wall might be beyond the gods power. There's been 3 death gods and they all use it?

 

[Mecheon]

The wall might be beyond the gods power. There's been 3 death gods and they all use it?

Kelemvor got rid of it for a while but then Ao showed up and said "Yeah, nah mate, put that back up"