D&D General Four Ability Scores

[Li Shenron]

These adjustments result in an optimally efficient gaming system. Each ability has a clear meaning, and is roughly equal in value to the other three abilities.

I don't think 4 abilities is inherently more efficient or "elegant" than 2, 6 or 8. Each of these numbers would work and has been used in different RPGs, having less vs having more has both benefits and drawbacks.

 

[Yaarel]

Str & Con are very different things even IRL. I can run a half-marathon today. I can't even do two pull-ups.

Also - pulling yourself up is a Dexterity maneuver to you? Not for me it isn't, it's all about my muscles.

shrug I think the 6 attributes, while not all useful all the time are a good distillation and meaningful enough in their own areas.

Is Dex too good in 5e? Sure, but oh well. I still like the 6 stat concept.

Old school D&D generally lacked skills. But in D&D today, we have skills. Skills are useful to split out and specialize in one of variegated aspects that get clustered into a single ability score.

For example, Charisma handles both the Persuade-Charm skill and the Intimidate-Frighten skill, even tho they are somewhat opposites. A skill allows a character concept to specialize in one and neglect the other. For example, a dragon concept might have very high Charisma because it is terrifying, and invest in Intimidate to shore up this theme.



Consider the case of a Strength-Constitution ability handling both aspects. It would be routine to simply add a ‘Stamina’ skill to specialize an aspect of Constitution. Unfortunately, in this case, Stamina checks are too rare. In my experience, they almost never happen. The only time it ever happened was for a long-distance swim, and maybe two or three analogous narrative scenarios. In my lifetime, it happened only a few times.

Notice, even D&D 5e has abandoned all skills for Constitution, because they are worthless mechanically. In 5e, Constitution is a strictly ‘passive’ ‘ability’. You cant do anything with Constitution. All you can do with it is get hit.

It is nonsensical to create a mechanic that is virtually useless. In this case, a hypothetical Stamina skill for stamina checks. It is ... bad design ... a trap ... to make a player choose between a useless skill and a powerful skill, and treat them as if they were the same, when they clearly imbalance. A traps-everywhere gaming design was even intentional in 3e, to reward ‘system mastery’, but this is one of the reasons I no longer play 3e (unless a friend really implores).

This is the main problem with the D&D sixsome. Originally, in formative D&D, they arrived somewhat randomly from accidental situations, are wildly unequal to each other, and so far have resisted attempts to systematize them.

Linking Strength and Constitution, helps make Constitution a more active choice, and helps make Strength a more valuable choice.

Int not being as strong overall as Dex doesn’t matter. It doesn’t stop people making high Int characters.

The fact that sixsome Intelligence is drastically less powerful than Dexterity, has stopped many players from making a high Intelligence Fighter. For example.

 

[Yaarel]

I'm surprised no one has brought up the eighteen (18!) attributes that the full version of Mythus used... As has been mentioned, attributes are a feature of the type of rpg that is being played, but there are some attributes that fantasy RPGs should consider stealing from more modern ones.

Consider the (sadly out of print) Twilight:2013 uses Awareness (AWA), Coordination (CDN), Fitness (FIT), Muscle (MUS), Cognition (COG), Education (EDU), Personality (PER), Resolve, (RES), Coolness Under Fire (CUF)and Observe-Orient-Decide-Act (OODA).

I am unfamiliar with these gaming systems, Mythus and Twilight 2013, but I will check them out.

I like the idea of Awareness being an attribute rather than a skill (Perception). I like the idea of Resolve being Willpower while lumping intelligence and wisdom into a single encompassing attribute while adding an additional one in the form of receiving formal learning.

I like the idea too of ‘Awareness’ Perception being an ability, rather than a skill.

In the ability foursome, Intelligence-Perception does work as a Perception ‘ability’.

For example:

To find someone who is hiding in the shadows, make an Intelligence-Perception (Stealth) check.

To identify an unknown liquid, make an Intelligence-Perception (Medicine) check to see if it is a poison, and an Intelligence-Perception (Arcana) check to see if it is a magical potion.

To identify if a document is a forgery, make an Intelligence-Perception (Deception) check.

If looking for tracks to pursue a creature, make an Intelligence-Perception (Survival) check.

And so on. You get the idea.

For example, it makes sense, that someone who is trained in Stealth, will know what to look for, and will be better able to spot someone else who is lurking, or recognize the meaning of a faint but telltale sound.



So, it is possible to delete the Perception-Investigation skill from the skill list. Instead use the Intelligence-Perception ability bonus, plus add the proficiency bonus of a relevant skill, if any.

 

[Tony Vargas]

As it should. Not every aspect of a game needs to be balanced according to mathematical or other “objective” measures.

"Need" only in so much as the game needs to be better. Once a game has reached a level of quality sufficient to satisfy it's market, it doesn't /need/ to be better, anymore, though it certainly could be - there's always room for improvement - and probably should strive to be, if it continues to iterate with errata or editions.

It doesn’t hurt the game that some stats are stronger than others. It would hurt the game to twist things into knots trying to perfectly “balance” them.

Actually, it does. In the case of D&D, though, it would hurt the game /more/ to relieve that pain in a rational/balanced way, because D&D is just stuck with it's baggage at this point. Really, the opportunity to improve D&D passed with the release of 2e, and the game is permanently stuck in the 20th century. People call it a dinosaur: it's more analogous to a horseshoe crab, a living-fossil trilobite.

It’s not just that the 4 stat idea isn’t gonna happen in dnd, I also believe it is a bad idea.

I think more stats might be a better solution than fewer, but anything that ends up less broken would be a good idea. It's only a bad idea, in context, because of the overwhelming inertia of D&D and the unrepentantly-reactionary elements of its fanbase. Essentially, almost any good idea that might be applied to D&D would a bad idea to actually apply.

As a theory, or a variant one might adopt in a home game, it's not bad at all.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Depends on your definition of balance. If you mean absolutely perfect balance in every campaign, in every session then I don't think that's achievable.

If you mean balance as in "good enough" balance then I think that's needed and that can be determined by mostly objective measure.



Well, too much imbalance does hurt the game. Of course - stats can't actually be balanced anyways in isolation. It's the whole package that needs balanced. The class and stat combinations are what needs balanced. You can have the weakest stat and have classes that key off that stat be a little stronger than classes that key off other stats. That's balanced.



I think it's a bad idea too. But balance is very important - because too much imbalance is very important.

I addressed the idea of “too much imbalance” in my first post.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

"Need" only in so much as the game needs to be better. Once a game has reached a level of quality sufficient to satisfy it's market, it doesn't /need/ to be better, anymore, though it certainly could be - there's always room for improvement - and probably should strive to be, if it continues to iterate with errata or editions.

Actually, it does. In the case of D&D, though, it would hurt the game /more/ to relieve that pain in a rational/balanced way, because D&D is just stuck with it's baggage at this point. Really, the opportunity to improve D&D passed with the release of 2e, and the game is permanently stuck in the 20th century. People call it a dinosaur: it's more analogous to a horseshoe crab, a living-fossil trilobite.

I think more stats might be a better solution than fewer, but anything that ends up less broken would be a good idea. It's only a bad idea, in context, because of the overwhelming inertia of D&D and the unrepentantly-reactionary elements of its fanbase. Essentially, almost any good idea that might be applied to D&D would a bad idea to actually apply.

As a theory, or a variant one might adopt in a home game, it's not bad at all.

Nope. The 6 ability scores aren’t just a throw back, they’re well designed.

They aren’t exactly equal in utility, and that’s absolutely fine. Making them more equal wouldn’t necessarily make the game better, and again, they game is not hurt by them being somewhat unequal.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Nope. The 6 ability scores aren’t just a throw back.

It's not a throwback if you never moved forward in the first place.

They aren’t exactly equal in utility, and that’s absolutely fine. Making them more equal wouldn’t necessarily make the game better, and again, they game is not hurt by them being somewhat unequal.

They've never even been close. But, amusingly, they've moved around. For the longest time, CHA was the notorious dump stat. And DEX, while superb, couldn't obviate STR.
No longer.

So, even if you don't consolidate or split out stats and change the number/names, their relative utility can be, and has been, altered. And the game would be better if their relative utility matched their relative weighting at Chargen and ASI, even if that meant changing the number of stats.

You could say "that'd only be a little better, and it's not worth enraging the fanbase for that small gain" and you'd be right.

 

[Yaarel]

Mythus is the roleplaying game that Gary Gygax created after D&D. Specifically Mythus is a fantasy setting for his Dangerous Journeys gaming system.

Mythus is a skill-based game design. It calls a skill a ‘knowledge/skill area’. The skills in the game are multitudinous and variegated, ranging from broad skills to narrow skills to singularly specific skills, from skills that overlap each other to skills that need other skills, to stand-alone unique skills, and from highly useful to rarely useful. Combat and magic are skills.

The game offers character classes that each list subclasses called ‘vocations’, such as Alchemy that lists Alchemist and Apothecary. Each subclass pre-selects the set of skills and pre-determines their various degrees of proficiency.

Every skill depends on an ability.



The ability system of Mythus is complex. Essentially, Mythus has three abilities: Physical, Mental, and Spiritual.

The ability threesome that Gary Gygax created is equivalent to the ability foursome that this thread describes.

• PHYSICAL ≈ Strength-Constitution + Dexterity-Athletics
• MENTAL ≈ Intelligence-Perception
• SPIRITUAL ≈ Charisma-Wisdom



Gary Gygax calls an ability a ‘trait’. Each trait splits into two subdivisions, called ‘categories’. Each category has three kinds of ability scores called ‘attributes’ − the numbers that ‘measure’ it − something like a full ability score, a partial ability score, and how long it takes to use an ability.

For the Mythus game, each ability with its two subdivisions is as follows.

PHYSICAL
Muscular
Neural

MENTAL
Mnemonic
Reasoning

SPIRITUAL
Metaphysical
Psychic



Gary Gygax explains each ability with its two subdivisions. Since every skill depends on an ability, needing one or both of its subdivisions, the respective skill lists also help concretize the meaning of each of the three abilities.

Here, the Physical ability comprises two subdivisions: Muscular and Neural.

PHYSICAL (Gary Gygax)

Muscular
• physical strength
• endurance
• body agility, body reflexes, balance, jump, tumble, fall, climb, movement speed, reaction time

Neural
• manual dexterity, sleight of hand, hand steadiness
• physical perception: noticing things by using any extraordinary sense of seeing, hearing, tasting or scenting

For Mythus, Gary Gygax separates the D&D Dexterity into body agility (gross motor skills) and manual dexterity (fine motor skills). This body agility includes all athletics: jump, fall, tumble, balance, climb, run, dodge, etcetera.

The Muscular subdivision adds the body agility to a combined strength-endurance.

Meanwhile the Neural subdivision is strictly manual dexterity. But it lumps physical perception via any heightened senses in with this manual dexterity.

Even as-is, the Physical ability is comparable to the Physical abilities of the ability foursome that this thread describes.

Moreover, by consolidating the kinds of dexterity back together − both the body agility and the manual dexterity − this Physical ability of Gary Gygax becomes identical to the Physical abilities of the ability foursome.

Also see below about moving ‘physical perception’ to the Mental ability, to reunite it with ‘mental perception’.

≈

PHYSICAL (Ability Foursome)

Strength-Constitution
• physical strength
• endurance

Dexterity-Athletics
• body agility, body reflexes, balance, jump, tumble, fall, climb, movement speed, reaction time
• manual dexterity, sleight of hand, hand steadiness



Next the Mental ability of Gary Gygax equates the Mental Intelligence-Perception ability of the ability foursome. Mental Mnemonics correlates to Intelligence in the sense of lore skills, and Mental Reasoning correlates to Perception in the sense of noticing things and figuring them out. Relatedly, the ‘deception’ skill uses perception to mislead someone elses perception.

MENTAL (Gary Gygax)

Mnemonics
• education, knowledge areas

Reasoning
• mental perception: noticing things by paying attention, figuring things out, deducing things, parsing things out
• deception

Note, in his gaming system, Gary Gygax created two kinds of ‘perception’ skills. ‘Physical perception’ means noticing things by means of extraordinary senses, such as above average eyesight or sensitive hearing, acute sense of scent, or a trained sense of taste. ‘Mental perception’ means noticing things by paying attention, anticipating, detecting, and understanding. However, these two perception skills are interchangeable, and either can be used for any perception check. If a character has both kinds of perception, then the perception check is rolled twice, using whichever result is best.

When consolidating the interchangeable kinds of perception into a single Perception skill, the Mnemonic-Reasoning of Gary Gygax becomes identical to the Intelligence-Perception of the ability foursome.

≈

MENTAL (Ability Foursome)

Intelligence
• education, knowledge areas

Perception
• physical perception: noticing things by using any extraordinary sense of seeing, hearing, tasting or scenting
• mental perception: noticing things by paying attention, figuring things out, deducing things, parsing things out
• deception



Finally, the Spiritual ability of Gary Gygax is identical to the combined Charisma-Wisdom ability of the ability foursome.

In Mythus, the two Spiritual subdivisions, Metaphysical and Psychic, bleed into each other. It is difficult to separate one from the other. Examples:

• belief (Metaphysical), faith (Psychic)
• leadership (Metaphysical), influence people (Psychic)
• impersonating (Metaphysical), acting (Psychic)
• creative writing (Metaphysical), poetry lyrics (Psychic)
• prognosticating (Metaphysical), prognosticating (Psychic)
• other planes (Metaphysical), other planes (Psychic)
• etcetera

The Spiritual ability of Gary Gygax intermingles the Metaphysical-Psychic subdivisions together so as to cover the aspects of social skills, persuasion, charm, intimidate, frighten, performance, artwork, spiritual community, and divination. It also covers willpower. As such, Spiritual is identical the foursome Charisma-Wisdom as a single ability.

SPIRITUAL (Gary Gygax)

Metaphysical-Psychic
• willpower
• social skills, empathy, persuasion, charm, intimidate, frighten
• performance, artwork
• spiritual community
• divination

≈

MENTAL (Ability Foursome)

Charisma-Wisdom
• willpower
• social skills, empathy, persuasion, charm, intimidate, frighten
• performance, artwork
• spiritual community
• divination



In sum, the ability threesome that Gary Gygax creates is structurally and functionally equivalent to the ability foursome that this thread presents.

 

[3catcircus]

Mythus is the roleplaying game that Gary Gygax created after D&D. Specifically Mythus is a fantasy setting for his Dangerous Journeys gaming system.

Mythus is a skill-based game design. It calls a skill a ‘knowledge/skill area’. The skills in the game are multitudinous and variegated, ranging from broad skills to narrow skills to singularly specific skills, from skills that overlap each other to skills that need other skills, to stand-alone unique skills, and from highly useful to rarely useful. Combat and magic are skills.

The game offers character classes that each list subclasses called ‘vocations’, such as Alchemy that lists Alchemist and Apothecary. Each subclass pre-selects the set of skills and pre-determines their various degrees of proficiency.

Every skill depends on an ability.



The ability system of Mythus is complex. Essentially, Mythus has three abilities: Physical, Mental, and Spiritual.

The ability threesome that Gary Gygax created is equivalent to the ability foursome that this thread describes.

• PHYSICAL ≈ Strength-Constitution + Dexterity-Athletics
• MENTAL ≈ Intelligence-Perception
• SPIRITUAL ≈ Charisma-Wisdom



Gary Gygax calls an ability a ‘trait’. Each trait splits into two subdivisions, called ‘categories’. Each category has three kinds of ability scores called ‘attributes’, something like a full ability score, a partial ability score, and how long it takes to use an ability.

For the Mythus game, each ability with its two subdivisions is as follows.

PHYSICAL
Muscular
Neural

MENTAL
Mnemonic
Reasoning

SPIRITUAL
Metaphysical
Psychic



Gary Gygax explains each ability with its two subdivisions. Since every skill depends on an ability, needing one or both of its subdivisions, the respective skill lists also help concretize the meaning of each of the three abilities.

Here, the Physical ability comprises two subdivisions: Muscular and Neural.

PHYSICAL (Gary Gygax)

Muscular
• physical strength
• endurance
• body agility, body reflexes, balance, jump, tumble, fall, climb, movement speed, reaction time

Neural
• manual dexterity, sleight of hand, hand steadiness
• physical perception: noticing things by using any extraordinary sense of seeing, hearing, tasting or scenting

For Mythus, Gary Gygax separates the D&D Dexterity into body agility (gross motor skills) and manual dexterity (fine motor skills). This body agility includes all athletics: jump, fall, tumble, balance, climb, run, dodge, etcetera.

The Muscular subdivision adds the body agility to a combined strength-endurance.

Meanwhile the Neural subdivision is strictly manual dexterity. But it lumps physical perception via any heightened senses in with this manual dexterity.

Even as-is, the Physical ability is comparable to the Physical abilities of the ability foursome that this thread describes.

Moreover, by consolidating the kinds of dexterity back together − both the body agility and the manual dexterity − this Physical ability of Gary Gygax becomes identical to the Physical abilities of the ability foursome.

Also see below about moving ‘physical perception’ to the Mental ability, to reunite it with ‘mental perception’.

≈

PHYSICAL (Ability Foursome)

Strength-Constitution
• physical strength
• endurance

Dexterity-Athletics
• body agility, body reflexes, balance, jump, tumble, fall, climb, movement speed, reaction time
• manual dexterity, sleight of hand, hand steadiness



Next the Mental ability of Gary Gygax equates the Mental Intelligence-Perception ability of the ability foursome. Mental Mnemonics correlates to Intelligence in the sense of lore skills, and Mental Reasoning correlates to Perception in the sense of noticing things and figuring them out. Relatedly, the ‘deception’ skill uses perception to mislead someone elses perception.

MENTAL (Gary Gygax)

Mnemonics
• education, knowledge areas

Reasoning
• mental perception: noticing things by paying attention, figuring things out, deducing things, parsing things out
• deception

Note, in his gaming system, Gary Gygax created two kinds of ‘perception’ skills. ‘Physical perception’ means noticing things by means of extraordinary senses, such as above average eyesight or sensitive hearing, acute sense of scent, or a trained sense of taste. ‘Mental perception’ means noticing things by paying attention, anticipating, detecting, and understanding. However, these two perception skills are interchangeable, and either can be used for any perception check. If a character has both kinds of perception, then the perception check is rolled twice, using whichever result is best.

When consolidating the interchangeable kinds of perception into a single Perception skill, the Mnemonic-Reasoning of Gary Gygax becomes identical to the Intelligence-Perception of the ability foursome.

≈

MENTAL (Ability Foursome)

Intelligence
• education, knowledge areas

Perception
• physical perception: noticing things by using any extraordinary sense of seeing, hearing, tasting or scenting
• mental perception: noticing things by paying attention, figuring things out, deducing things, parsing things out
• deception



Finally, the Spiritual ability of Gary Gygax is identical to the combined Charisma-Wisdom ability of the ability foursome.

In Mythus, the two Spiritual subdivisions, Metaphysical and Psychic, bleed into each other. It is difficult to separate one from the other. Examples:

• belief (Metaphysical), faith (Psychic)
• leadership (Metaphysical), influence people (Psychic)
• impersonating (Metaphysical), acting (Psychic)
• creative writing (Metaphysical), poetry lyrics (Psychic)
• prognosticating (Metaphysical), prognosticating (Psychic)
• other planes (Metaphysical), other planes (Psychic)
• etcetera

The Spiritual ability of Gary Gygax intermingles the Metaphysical-Psychic subdivisions together so as to cover the aspects of social skills, persuasion, charm, intimidate, frighten, performance, artwork, spiritual community, and divination. It also covers willpower. As such, Spiritual is identical the foursome Charisma-Wisdom as a single ability.

SPIRITUAL (Gary Gygax)

Metaphysical-Psychic
• willpower
• social skills, empathy, persuasion, charm, intimidate, frighten
• performance, artwork
• spiritual community
• divination

≈

MENTAL (Ability Foursome)

Charisma-Wisdom
• willpower
• social skills, empathy, persuasion, charm, intimidate, frighten
• performance, artwork
• spiritual community
• divination



In sum, the ability threesome that Gary Gygax creates is structurally and functionally equivalent to the ability foursome that this thread presents.

Yes, but not really.

Physical, Mental, Spiritual each break down into two subtraits and each of those breaks down further into a Capacity, a Power, and a Speed -> 18, not 3.

How reach of them related to skills and attribute checks means they aren't really just 3.

 

[FrogReaver]

Old school D&D generally lacked skills. But in D&D today, we have skills. Skills are useful to split out and specialize in one of variegated aspects that get clustered into a single ability score.

The only skills you can specialize in are those where you take proficiency in the skill and have a good stat in it. Everything that just does one and not the other isn't specialization but mediocracy. Only those things that do neither are poor.

The point is that your stats (and ultimately class) still determine what you can actually specialize in - it's just now you have the option to not specailzie in something and instead become mediocore at something else.