Woah. First, expertise is still just letting the dice decide.
Second, if "later" doesn't count for the fighter, why would it count for the rogue?
I am sensing a double standard here.
No now we definitely have shifting positions. Earlier people said "before level 6". So I listed a bunch which come at level 3, and now that doesn't count either? And the counter-example is one of the only classes that get their big subclass ability at level one?
Are we going to have a fair discussion here or not? Of course level three counts. MOST classes get their subclass at level 3. It's OK to use level 3.
I mean, I didn't say 'before level 6' myself... and I admit the extra proficiencies of the subclass are nice. They're just not phenomenal.
Expertise is, yes, still letting the dice decide, but it means you just factally have better odds. If you have players who are proficient and one with expertise, you know that profciency will just devolve to the help action. Which is useful but not particularly thrilling for the helper.
Expertise is just... more interesting than simple proficiency I guess. It's, like I mention, mostly a flavor thing. Know what I'm saying?
And like it was mentionned, the game is too stingy with handing out Expertise. Clerics should get Expertise in Religion and Wizard get it in Arcana and Bard in one of the CHA skills. The Fighter should get Expertise Athletics or Acrobatics.
Really, I'm willing to admit balance is, on the whole, fine. I'll be honest, the Fighter's out of combat options are just too boring for me.
They don't feel like "Look at this Cool naughty word I can do now!" when you reach those levels, thy're just "Oh, more of that, neat!". Where's the pizzaz?! The evocative class feature names? The PHB Fighter almost feels like they included it because they had to and try to spend as little page count on it as possible. It makes mayonaise looks spicy.
I haven't got the other books but from what I read I do think some of the new subclasses have a bit of a better flavor. Mechanics, for in combat stuff, don't feel as solid though (seriously, what's up with the Arcane Archer?! Is it an
Arcane Archer or 'Dude with 3 cool Arrows'?)