D&D General Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes

[Don Durito]

These are Exalted Warfare Charms. I really think Fighters ought to get some abilities along these lines.

HEROISM-ENCOURAGING PRESENCE
The Chosen radiate the confidence and surety of the Unconquered Sun. This Charm affects any unit or social group that the Solar commands and every ally within (Essence x 5) yards. This Charm’s targets no longer need to make Valor checks. In war, this Charm prevents rout and reduces the chance of fatigue.

TIGER WARRIOR TRAINING TECHNIQUE
Under the banner of the Solar Exalted, even bandits and peasants become deadly warriors. This Charm involves training a military unit. This Charm requires five or more hours of effort in any given week to bear fruit. This Charm increases the Drill of a unit by one for each week of training, to a maximum of Drill 5. In each week of training, the trainer picks one trait to train: Valor, Strength, Dexterity, Stamina, Archery, Dodge, Martial Arts or Melee. This Charm increases that trait for each member of the unit by one dot, to a maximum of 4. The Solar can train with the unit or as a solo unit, increasing her own traits. She cannot increase others’ traits past her own.

 

[Garthanos]

The purpose of this thread is to come up with ideas of constructive changes that would help the OP. And so I would hope that is what everyone involved in it is here to do.

I think I am here for the popcorn but I am inclined to provide ideas given the subject.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Oh right the do ALL the things guy is Lugh Lamfada ... but ALL of the things included Sorceror so I am not thinking he helps

You could make that sorceror ritualist, plus a handful of other magics.

Tbh i think the sorceror is a bit of a clusterfuck too actually. So...

Also i dont really see the point you r trying to make

 

[Campbell]

This thread does not have the Fifth Edition tag. I wish there was a Design tag so I could clarify what I was looking for.

My intent was to discuss from a design perspective how we could have martial classes that require the same amount of skill and coordination to play as spell casters while still feeling thematically like martial classes. How do we make fighters mechanically engaging while retaining a play environment where most the things they do are at will and spell casters still have daily spell slots, hopefully with individual memorization?

Basically I want to remove the tension between playing a fighter because I like them thematically and playing a psychic warrior or cleric in Third Edition or playing a paladin or cleric in Fifth Edition because they provide the mechanical engagement and challenge I am looking for. Fourth Edition lacked this problem, but fighters did not feel like fighters to me after awhile. So far it looks like Pathfinder Second Edition has solved this problem in one particular way, but I am interested in other possible solutions.

I am not looking to argue that Fifth Edition should be a different game. My criticisms of it are limited to what I am looking for. I am not entitled to anyone's creative labor. I play the games I want to play and do not give a damn about how popular they are. The kind of game I am looking for would probably not be as accessible as Fifth Edition needs to be. There is no harm in acknowledging that.

I do think there is some room for a more complex fully at will fighter and would like to see that. Not holding my breath. Just like I do not think we will see a fully competitive true Vancian Wizard like I would also like to see.

Personally I am not wedded to any particular version of Dungeons and Dragons. In the last year I have played Dungeon World, Fifth Edition, Moldvay B/X, and Pathfinder Second Edition. I am going to continue playing all of these. I probably will not run Fifth Edition. I do not default to Fifth Edition when discussing Dungeons and Dragons. As far as I am concerned there is no standard bearer. All those games I mentioned are just as much Dungeons and Dragons as any other.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Trying to figure out what might be some of those abilities included a brutal style of warlording (investigation style and a non-4e variant I think ) where he sacrificed minions to gain insight into enemies. And supernal con and strength swimming generally probably a naturalist hunter too. and social empowerment getting more minions all the time and... and fighting both with armor and weapons and effectively fighting unarmed and unarmored quite well,very definitely stealthy, but I suspect he cannot pick locks? but he definitely a sneaky bastard at times I am not sure his world had them very often. ... just thinking out loud because I might have to build that warlord type.

I enjoyed reading that lol

 

[Don Durito]

Are you familiar with Dungeon Crawl Classic's Deed Die? That's a simple and elegant mechanic that allows Fighters to attempt things at will.

DCC is pretty rules light - but I don't, in principle see why you couldn't attach it to something like 4E's combat engine with its much more specific and grounded list of conditions. Attempting a push would be relatively simple, a daze more difficult, and a stun unlikely.

There's way's you could build on that. For example if the situation is particularly appropriate you could have advantage on the Deed Die for some stunts. For example, if your standing further up a slope than your opponent than pushing him should be easier - so roll 2 deed die and take the highest result. If you want to shove two opponents you just need a higher target number.

 

[Garthanos]

Tbh i think the sorceror is a bit of a clusterfuck too actually. So...

Also i dont really see the point you r trying to make

Point? One of his titles/names Samildánach literally meant skilled in all the arts
The Sorcerors in Lughs story were not a D&D class they were a societal role who the more mundane version of sabotaged enemies in battle. And the heroic ones transformed into animals and vanished from plain view and possibly only a few more abilities but his attacks were definitely martial. He was the uber multi-capable in some sense his main roles in story were Warlord (and they didnt even let him fight at one point to his chagrin), Champion (yeh literally fighting in anothers name), Sorcerer but also a Wright/Carpenter, Smith/Bronze Craftsman, A Healer, A Harpist, A Poet/Historian. His favored weapons were Spear and Sling.

 

[Garthanos]

I enjoyed reading that lol

Awesome, that is the point... these archetypes can feed into the game.

 

[Tony Vargas]

How do we make fighters mechanically engaging while retaining a play environment where most the things they do are at will and spell casters still have daily spell slots, hopefully with individual memorization?

Well, traditional-Vancian instead of neo- is a small part of that potential solution. Another /part/ of it, which 5e uses as most of it, is to balance around a prescribed pacing, but, also, force that pacing (think 13A full-heal-up). Without that, at-will vs daily will never work out.

Then there's the hard part.

Making at-wills that are, by definition, less potent, varied, and impactful as dailies /as engaging/.

Good luck with that.

Basically I want to remove the tension between playing a fighter because I like them thematically and playing a psychic warrior or cleric in Third Edition or playing a paladin or cleric in Fifth Edition because they provide the mechanical engagement and challenge I am looking for.

That tension is, as I suppose FrogReaver has been pointing out, intensional. The Fighter represents the most common, familiar, relatable, and enduringly popular of heroic fantasy archetypes. The full-casters, really, draw inspiration from villains, exposition/background/helper characters, and Deus Ex Machina appearances - in genre, they're often obscure, incompletely-drawn, unrelatable, 'other.'
That one is a better choice, mechanically than the other, but also a less appealing choice, creates an important part of the play dynamics that create the feel of D&D.
(In another thread Rob Kuntz described the first time Arneson ran what would become D&D for EGG &co. Given the choice of Hero or Wizard, all but Gary, himself, chose Hero.)
If fighters were fully competitive, you might not see a lot of other character types played.

Fourth Edition lacked this problem, but fighters did not feel like fighters to me after awhile....So far I Pathfinder Second Edition has solved this problem in one particular way,

We'll see how you feel about it "after awhile."

but I am interested in other possible solutions.
... The kind of game I am looking for would probably not be as accessible as Fifth Edition needs to be. There is no harm in acknowledging that.

Oh, a lot of the accessibility of 5e is the enthusiasm of long-time/returning fans for it's familiarity being contagious to new players.

 

[Garthanos]

Point? One of his titles/names Samildánach literally meant skilled in all the arts
The Sorcerors in Lughs story were not a D&D class they were a societal role who the more mundane version of sabotaged enemies in battle. And the heroic ones transformed into animals and vanished from plain view and possibly only a few more abilities but his attacks were definitely martial. He was the uber multi-capable in some sense his main roles in story were Warlord (and they didnt even let him fight at one point to his chagrin), Champion (yeh literally fighting in anothers name), Sorcerer but also a Wright/Carpenter, Smith/Bronze Craftsman, A Healer, A Harpist, A Poet/Historian. His favored weapons were Spear and Sling.

And the Ancient Celt healers were the kinds that stitched limbs back on or replaced them with metal replacements lets call this some of the first stories about cybernetics and there legendary ones bragged they could raise someone from the dead if you didnt remove their heads,