D&D General Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes

[Manbearcat]

Just posted this in the 5e Fighter thread.

But this can easily be accomplished in other systems (eg in Dungeon World this would be a playbook move whereby the Fighter rolls at the beginning of the day for Hold and can spend it throughout the day to either (a) allow an allow to reroll a die or (b) allows the use of a move that demoralizes an enemy).

I'll going to put an addendum to my post upthread and since this is 5th edition that is being talked about here, I'll use that system to express the concept.

One of the most impactful aspects of an athlete who is the apex predator, the absolute pinnacle of the dominance hierarchy (the proverbial king, or queen, of the jungle), is how the rest of the members of that hierarchy are either emboldened by their presence (if they share cause) or they absolutely wilt in their presence (if they are opposed).

Tiger Woods overwhelmingly won on Friday and Saturday. What happened on Sunday? Being caught in his orbit, his competition wilted under that overwhelming task (playing below, often well below, their natural capabilities) time_after time_after time_after time. Tiger wasn't a comeback king. He was an absolute front-runner with his ability to just hit clutch shots when he needed to just completely debilitating his opponents who were absolutely top of the food chain...if not for one Tiger Woods.

Michael Jordan and the Bulls?

Exact same thing. Teams were beaten before they took the court. Overwhelmingly, opposition (guys who, again, were absolute far, far, far end of the distribution of human capability) spoke in reverential, fearful tones of him (while they were in the freaking league together)...never wanting to draw his ire and give him (and through him, his teammates) cause to grind them into absolute dust.

The weight of his presence, the specter of inevitability through him looming:

1) Moralized allies to heights they would be not be capable of otherwise.

2) Demoralized opposition to depths that they otherwise had no business falling to.

How do you accomplish this in 5e?

Simple,

Reskin the Diviner Subclass ability Portent and have it work mechanically in exactly the same way (because that is effectively what happens in our world).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Just posted this in the 5e Fighter thread.

But this can easily be accomplished in other systems (eg in Dungeon World this would be a playbook move whereby the Fighter rolls at the beginning of the day for Hold and can spend it throughout the day to either (a) allow an allow to reroll a die or (b) allows the use of a move that demoralizes an enemy).

I'll going to put an addendum to my post upthread and since this is 5th edition that is being talked about here, I'll use that system to express the concept.

One of the most impactful aspects of an athlete who is the apex predator, the absolute pinnacle of the dominance hierarchy (the proverbial king, or queen, of the jungle), is how the rest of the members of that hierarchy are either emboldened by their presence (if they share cause) or they absolutely wilt in their presence (if they are opposed).

Tiger Woods overwhelmingly won on Friday and Saturday. What happened on Sunday? Being caught in his orbit, his competition wilted under that overwhelming task (playing below, often well below, their natural capabilities) time_after time_after time_after time. Tiger wasn't a comeback king. He was an absolute front-runner with his ability to just hit clutch shots when he needed to just completely debilitating his opponents who were absolutely top of the food chain...if not for one Tiger Woods.

Michael Jordan and the Bulls?

Exact same thing. Teams were beaten before they took the court. Overwhelmingly, opposition (guys who, again, were absolute far, far, far end of the distribution of human capability) spoke in reverential, fearful tones of him (while they were in the freaking league together)...never wanting to draw his ire and give him (and through him, his teammates) cause to grind them into absolute dust.

The weight of his presence, the specter of inevitability through him looming:

1) Moralized allies to heights they would be not be capable of otherwise.

2) Demoralized opposition to depths that they otherwise had no business falling to.

How do you accomplish this in 5e?

Simple,

Reskin the Diviner Subclass ability Portent and have it work mechanically in exactly the same way (because that is effectively what happens in our world).

Very interesting post, for sure.


Not sure I’m excited for the fighter as ubermensch, but that is actually a great insight into part of what makes the Captain/“Leader of Men” archetype work so well in general.

I might steal from the garbage food purveyors advert-rpg’s “Feast Mode”, and introduce an aura of some sort that demoralizes enemies and buffs allies when you get a critical hit or roll a nat 20 on a successful ability check.

 

[Garthanos]

gadzooks I hate remove all the tactics by tying it to a critical mindset.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

gadzooks I hate remove all the tactics by tying it to a critical mindset.

Hah! I mean, some stuff makes sense to ride along on a crit.

And it’s not something I’d add to the system any other way. It’s just adding to a crit in a way that isn’t damage.

And I wouldn’t apply it to monsters.

But maybe instead I’ll just have players get Inspiration on a natural 20 on any check that I or the rules specifically call for.

 

[Don Durito]

If you tye it to bloodying someone or putting them down as well then you can be a little more tactical.

Rather than focus firing on the big tough guy - you might decide it's better to take out a minion first.

Although I do like the idea of using the portent mechanic for Fighters - I'd probably think of that as more about just general skill and experience - being able to measure your risks.

 

[Garthanos]

The ubermensch intimidation effect was in Chainmail... just saying.

 

[Garthanos]

I want a fighter high level ability called one man army (also a quote from Chainmail)

 

[Son of the Serpent]

What does one man army do @Garthanos

 

[Garthanos]

What does one man army do @Garthanos

At the moment its just an awesome reference to how potent the character was intended to be

I am now brainstorming it... and it doesnt feel like one thing.

Its rather sounds like more of the combat awesome I suppose and not a versatility feature. But presumably an army can prevent large numbers of enemy from passing (see intimidation effect) ie they effectively take up space by awesomeness. An army can affect huge parts of the battlefield offensively or topple things of tremendous sizes by joint effort. Towers come tumbling down rivers can be dug up in zero time ... yay for martial engineering skill being stuck on my brain.

From previous editions
In 1e you could attack as many low level enemies in a turn as you had levels which was in theory a pretty awesome ability in practice it never came up. In 4e they had a battlerager ability that in its first incarnation allowed one to chew up minions easily by granting temp hit points triggered by you being attacked. Rendering you basically immune to those minor enemies that the 1e fighter could eat for lunch.
The Monk has a low level daily allowing it to launch an attack against every adjacent enemy it moved past during its turn (which could be quite many). A high level sword mage could attack every enemy they could see (which is basically everyone on the battlefield.
Anyone have ideas not attack everything everywhere? LOL

 

[Tony Vargas]

... just an awesome reference to how potent the character was intended to be ...
In 1e you could attack as many low level enemies in a turn as you had levels which was in theory a pretty awesome ability in practice it never came up.

The problem was that, by the time you got an impressive number of attacks, the less-than-1-HD targets were trivial.
But, until 5e, each ed tried to deliver something similar:
3e had Great Cleave, which also depended on having pretty trivial enemies to slice through, and WWA, which didn't so much, though, obviously, you couldn't expect to stand up to being surrounded by creatures of anywhere near your level.
4e gave the fighter a number of close burst attacks as encounters or dailies, including the namesakes of the above, and the notorious Come & Get It, but combined them with minions, credible minor foes able to hit you, and that you might miss, but which dropped in one hit, so you briefly got the effect. Even Essentials had a Cleaving Stance, though it wasn't much by comparison.
Then, in 5e, BA made much lower-level foes credible, to the point of being very real threats - but /didn't/ give the fighter anything for carving through them.