D&D (2024) What Improvements Would You Want with 6E?

[Son of the Serpent]

@Tony Vargas

Please, give generously to guide elves for the blind...

Why are elves so good at saving money?

Its much easier to rescue it when you notice the secret door its trapped behind or can see it desperately wanting to be picked up in the dark when its siffering is just invisible to others. Elves are quite considerate to lost and hopeless coins. Gnomes too but they cant reach the door knobs and teiflings have a phobia of doors and portals leading to foreign family reunions so they block it out of their minds.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

They all sort of blend together, IMX, it's so typical, and I'd done so many intro games while my health held out (no, it's OK, I'm mostly recovered these days). But a few anecdotes stand out...

So, you never do that and get "how 'bout a wizard like in Harry Potter?" (Wasn't my table, but we never saw that new player again. It stuck out in my memory because of the contrast. The FLGS was very crowded and an employee was helping two 'new' players get started - an older, not as old as me, but not young, guy who'd played some D&D in high school, and less old, but still not terribly young, lady who uttered the doomed Harry Potter line. The guy, of course, proposed to start with a fighter, because that'd be easiest to get back into it - kept seeing him around for months.)

By then, of course, I'd gone to the hard policy of pregens only. Pick a pregen, don't even talk about how it might relate to a familiar archetype from genre, just explain it in the context of the game. Ironically, "Defender" &c were helpful, when it was Encounters and the pregens were laminated half-sheets.

Nah. Literally just saying “magic doesn’t work the same in dnd as it doesn’t in HP, but you can make someone who was born with magic potential in dnd a few different ways” has seen us through that just fine several times, though.

There’s never a reason to be like “your character will never live up to Gandalf.” The natural conclusion for the noob is, “that sentence ends with, ‘so don’t bother trying to play the concept you want to play’”

 

[Parmandur]

People design games that are never offered for sale. People can acquire games for free. People buy games without any experience of how they'll play.

I don't see how much more demonstration of the obvious you need.

"Sell" doesn't necessarily involve commercial transaction. If someone designs a game they do not mean for people to play, that's a math exercise, not game design. If someone designs a game to give away for free, they still want people to play it, very literally to be sold on the game.

If somebody buys a game without a solid idea of the gameplay, they did so because some aspect of the presentation sold them on it. For instance, I purchased Chicken Caesar because the concept made me laugh. Presentation is part of game design: for instance, Magic: the Gathering is a complex math system that Richard Garfield added a particular fluff to, which sold and sells the math design. They are all of a piece.

Or when asserting that the popularity of something proves it has a specific, theoretically desireable quality, when there are many other, much stronger explanations for it's popularity

But when the specific quality has proven popular, it is relevant. The 5E adventures, using the 5E adventure guidelines, have been successful, ergo we can conclude that the adventure guidelines are not contrary to the game's popularity.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Huh...kinda has me wondering what class most resembles harry potter type wizards...or even just one of them like mr potter himself. The only things i can think of involve really badly multiclassed high level characters jist to get a few years into hogwarts.

I mean...they have the resource availability of a warlock blaster caster but variance and highly powerful effects like a crazy sortbof wizard with some circle magic.

And that just getting started.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Nah. Literally just saying “magic doesn’t work the same in dnd as it doesn’t in HP, but you can make someone who was born with magic potential in dnd a few different ways” has seen us through that just fine several times, though.

There’s never a reason to be like “your character will never live up to Gandalf.” The natural conclusion for the noob is, “that sentence ends with, ‘so don’t bother trying to play the concept you want to play’”

But you CAN live up to and surpass both. Just doesnt happen immediately. And not in 4th or 5th edition.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I have never really seen this, bit I only play with friends and family at home.

Well, that does give a very different perspective. Back in the day, I gamed at local hobby shops until they all closed or stopped having anything to do with RPGs (c1989, I guess it must've been). I went to conventions quite regularly from the early 80s - 5/year, I think was my peak attendance, but that included a couple sci-fi cons with just a bit of gaming on the side closer to two the last decade or so - until the last few years when health issues (and the attendant medical bills) precluded it. Might get back to one local con, next year, they're changing venue to one closer to where I live, that'll make it easier.
In 2010, the Encounters program started up and I was delighted to find that the "FLGS" had made a come-back. OK, it was a comic shop, but still, we'd fit 4 or 5 tables inside, and two outside (CA, outside is comfortable much of the year), gaming did so well from them over the next few years that the spun off a dedicated game shop, that's half tables.
At first, encounters was /heavily/ new players. Even when the playtest started, we'd still get more than a few, though never at the playtest table, that held the interest of only more committed fans.

So I've seen a wide cross section of gamers over the decades - though, even so, from the Bay Area (the hobby's not as regional as it used to be thanks to the internet, but there's still differences) - including a lotta new players.

Huh...kinda has me wondering what class most resembles harry potter type wizards...

I suppose warlock might come close, mechanically, in that it has some at-will magical powers it uses frequently, and others that only come out occasionally, but not prominent preparation/memorization. Wizard, appropriately, is right there, of course, in theme with magic-as-scholarship, which only makes it harder.
4e, we used to joke about Wand Implement Mastery making you a "Harry Potter wizard."

"Sell" doesn't necessarily involve commercial transaction.

Sure, metaphorically, it can mean "convince to try" or something. But you haven't been using it metaphorically.

If someone designs a game they do not mean for people to play, that's a math exercise, not game design.

Well, or in support of a sales goal. Like if he designs a commemorative edition with the expectation that it'll be kept 'mint in box' by the target audience.

If somebody buys a game without a solid idea of the gameplay, they did so because some aspect of the presentation sold them on it.

Yep. Which is not necessarily part of the game design. The packaging and marketing could all be designed by a separate team, after the game was created, for instance.

But when the specific quality has proven popular, it is relevant. The 5E adventures, using the 5E adventure guidelines, have been successful, ergo we can conclude that the adventure guidelines are not contrary to the game's popularity.

The most successful/popular/praised ones have been those that directly reference classic modules, too. We could draw an entirely different conclusion from that.

Personally, if I had to guess at the dynamics driving the current D&D comeback, I'd speculate that the core of it is not old players driven by nostalgia, but new players driven by curiosity about the /experience/. That the grogs are on board lends it vital 'authenticity' without which you couldn't satisfy that curiosity. That the experience of D&D has had quite significant elements of class imbalance, frustration, unpredictable/high lethality at 1st, and dysfunction at high levels, means none of those things are remotely dealbreakers - and, indeed, lacking too many of them could have been, if it meant losing that sense authenticity. Enough "not really D&D" grumping on-line and interest could've dropped off, instead of being curious about the phenom, the mainstream would be repelled by the 'controversy' and obviously insular/unpleasant community. When everyone's happy with the game, the community feels more welcoming.

Now, that's a lot of factors going into bringing a property back, and it does /touch/ on design, but it imposes factors on design other than simply "game that people will enjoy playing."

There’s never a reason to be like “your character will never live up to Gandalf.”

Of course not, your wizard will get there by 5th!

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Well, that does give a very different perspective. Back in the day, I gamed at local hobby shops until they all closed or stopped having anything to do with RPGs (c1989, I guess it must've been). I went to conventions quite regularly from the early 80s - 5/year, I think was my peak attendance, but that included a couple sci-fi cons with just a bit of gaming on the side closer to two the last decade or so - until the last few years when health issues (and the attendant medical bills) precluded it. Might get back to one local con, next year, they're changing venue to one closer to where I live, that'll make it easier.
In 2010, the Encounters program started up and I was delighted to find that the "FLGS" had made a come-back. OK, it was a comic shop, but still, we'd fit 4 or 5 tables inside, and two outside (CA, outside is comfortable much of the year), gaming did so well from them over the next few years that the spun off a dedicated game shop, that's half tables.
At first, encounters was /heavily/ new players. Even when the playtest started, we'd still get more than a few, though never at the playtest table, that held the interest of only more committed fans.

So I've seen a wide cross section of gamers over the decades - though, even so, from the Bay Area (the hobby's not as regional as it used to be thanks to the internet, but there's still differences) - including a lotta new players.

I suppose warlock might come close, mechanically, in that it has some at-will magical powers it uses frequently, and others that only come out occasionally, but not prominent preparation/memorization. Wizard, appropriately, is right there, of course, in theme with magic-as-scholarship, which only makes it harder.
4e, we used to joke about Wand Implement Mastery making you a "Harry Potter wizard."

Sure, metaphorically, it can me "convince to try" or something. But you haven't been using it metaphorically.

Well, or in support of a sales goal. Like if he designs a commemorative edition with the expectation that it'll be kept 'mint in box' by the target audience.

Yep. Which is not necessarily part of the game design. The packaging and marketing could all be designed by a separate team, after the game was created, for instance.

The most successful/popular/praised ones have been those that directly reference classic modules, too. We could draw an entirely different conclusion from that.

Personally, if I had to guess at the dynamics driving the current D&D comeback, I'd speculate that the core of it is not old players driven by nostalgia, but new players driven by curiosity about the /experience/. That the grogs are on board lends it vital 'authenticity' without which you couldn't satisfy that curiosity. That the experience of D&D has had quite significant elements of class imbalance, frustration, unpredictable/high lethality at 1st, and dysfunction at high levels, means none of those things are remotely dealbreakers - and, indeed, lacking too many of them could have been, if it meant losing that sense authenticity. Enough "not really D&D" grumping on-line and interest could've dropped off, instead of being curious about the phenom, the mainstream would be repelled by the 'controversy' and obviously insular/unpleasant community. When everyone's happy with the game, the community feels more welcoming.

Now, that's a lot of factors going into bringing a property back, and it does /touch/ on design, but it imposes factors on design other than simply "game that people will enjoy playing."

Of course not, your wizard will get there by 5th!

Not in 4th or 5th. Not enough variance. And you will surpass gandalf on his average day in those editions but again not when he brought his complete A GAME.

Gandalf is a demigod after all. Of sorts.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Well, that does give a very different perspective. Back in the day, I gamed at local hobby shops until they all closed or stopped having anything to do with RPGs (c1989, I guess it must've been). I went to conventions quite regularly from the early 80s - 5/year, I think was my peak attendance, but that included a couple sci-fi cons with just a bit of gaming on the side closer to two the last decade or so - until the last few years when health issues (and the attendant medical bills) precluded it. Might get back to one local con, next year, they're changing venue to one closer to where I live, that'll make it easier.
In 2010, the Encounters program started up and I was delighted to find that the "FLGS" had made a come-back. OK, it was a comic shop, but still, we'd fit 4 or 5 tables inside, and two outside (CA, outside is comfortable much of the year), gaming did so well from them over the next few years that the spun off a dedicated game shop, that's half tables.
At first, encounters was /heavily/ new players. Even when the playtest started, we'd still get more than a few, though never at the playtest table, that held the interest of only more committed fans.

So I've seen a wide cross section of gamers over the decades - though, even so, from the Bay Area (the hobby's not as regional as it used to be thanks to the internet, but there's still differences) - including a lotta new players.

I suppose warlock might come close, mechanically, in that it has some at-will magical powers it uses frequently, and others that only come out occasionally, but not prominent preparation/memorization. Wizard, appropriately, is right there, of course, in theme with magic-as-scholarship, which only makes it harder.
4e, we used to joke about Wand Implement Mastery making you a "Harry Potter wizard."

Sure, metaphorically, it can me "convince to try" or something. But you haven't been using it metaphorically.

Well, or in support of a sales goal. Like if he designs a commemorative edition with the expectation that it'll be kept 'mint in box' by the target audience.

Yep. Which is not necessarily part of the game design. The packaging and marketing could all be designed by a separate team, after the game was created, for instance.

The most successful/popular/praised ones have been those that directly reference classic modules, too. We could draw an entirely different conclusion from that.

Personally, if I had to guess at the dynamics driving the current D&D comeback, I'd speculate that the core of it is not old players driven by nostalgia, but new players driven by curiosity about the /experience/. That the grogs are on board lends it vital 'authenticity' without which you couldn't satisfy that curiosity. That the experience of D&D has had quite significant elements of class imbalance, frustration, unpredictable/high lethality at 1st, and dysfunction at high levels, means none of those things are remotely dealbreakers - and, indeed, lacking too many of them could have been, if it meant losing that sense authenticity. Enough "not really D&D" grumping on-line and interest could've dropped off, instead of being curious about the phenom, the mainstream would be repelled by the 'controversy' and obviously insular/unpleasant community. When everyone's happy with the game, the community feels more welcoming.

Now, that's a lot of factors going into bringing a property back, and it does /touch/ on design, but it imposes factors on design other than simply "game that people will enjoy playing."

Of course not, your wizard will get there by 5th!

i take one aspect of what i said back. You can live up to, have comparable abilities, and surpass gandalf without doing very poorly leveled very high leveled annoyingly complicated (to the point of getting a lot of redundancies) multiclassing but only one way and only in one edition. (This is also assuming you arent allowed to be high level. Gotta pull it off by mid level)

Prepare for the fusion of two of the cheesiest things in dnd. Ill admit they are both from 3rd. Still my favorite edition:

5 levels of red wizard of thay.

Put everything else in chosen of mystra.

After you have finished tenderizing the wizard enjoy your flame grilled estari burger and cheese

 

[Undrave]

How about 6e finally admits that Ranger aren't a real thing and just folds them back into Fighter?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Not in 4th or 5th. Not enough variance. And you will surpass gandalf on his average day in those editions but again not when he brought his complete A GAME. Gandalf is a demigod after all. Of sorts.

Yeah, according to him, and his entirely off-screen A-game. But, yeah, in 4e, you could literally be a Demigod, not that you'd need to be...

i take one aspect of what i said back. You can surpass gandalf without doing really poor very high kevel multiclassing but only one way and only in one edition. (This is also assuming you arent allowed to be high level. Gotta pull it off by mid level)

Admittedly it was for a parody, but I did a "5th level Magic-user" Gandalf I was pretty happy with in 1e, 3e & 4e. Specifically:

9th level Fighter/5th level magic user, "character with two classes" (hilariously, every time he drew Glamdring, he got no exp!) and a Staff of the Magi & Ring of Fire Elemental Command - and psionic* enough to destroy a Type VI demon, one-on-one.

5th level half-celestial* wizard, same items.

5th level Deva* Wizard.

* Because, as you know, Gandalf was a quasi-angelic Maiar.

Prepare for the fusion of two of the cheesiest things in dnd. Ill admit they are both from 3rd. Still my favorite edition:
5 levels of red wizard of thay. Put everything else in chosen of mystra.

As long as you're a 5th level magic-user, it counts!