Help Me Understand the GURPS Design Perspective

[aramis erak]

On that note have you seen the Sentinels Comics RPG? It's as close to a streamlined Marvel Heroic 2e as there is ever going to be.

No, it isn't. Cam Banks has stated that one of the Cortex Prime flavors will essentially be MHRP 2 without the Marvel Characters. (Cam's also been involved in SCRPG.) SCRPG is closer to AWE/PBTA than to Cortex Plus.

Also, having run the two back to back (last winter), MHRP is a different feel in play. It's the difference in approaches to and effects of damage. SC's HP system makes boosts/hinders different mechanically from damage; MHRP's damage is literally just another die-trait; one can make boosts/hinders with exactly the same mechanics as doing damage. The metacurrency Plot Points of MRHP are different from the much more limited metacurrency in SCRPG.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm going to disagree with that.

Go take a look at... Shadowrun. A mundane person, who has not spent a lot of their build capacity on being magical, or having lots of cyberware, and so on, can have higher Edge. Edge is the game's luck stat, allowing the player to manipulate their die results somewhat - rolling more dice, rerollng dice, buying off critical fumbles, and the like. Edge is powerful - and you can only have lots of it if you are basically mundane.

In Shadowrun, Edge is the thing that allows an unmodified, skilled human to stand up next to orc street samurai with cyberware and submachine guns and elf wizards throwing fireballs and still be viable. It is totally equivalent to "plot armor", and it works pretty well in that respect.

So, imagine a game that allows you to build Superman. Now, assume you have the same build points - enough to build a virtual god. But you don't make them super-fast, super-strong, or armored. Where do you figure all that power goes?

I’m familiar with Shadowrun. HERO has Luck, plus a whole suite of powers, feats and talents that can be used for lucky character builds, depending on how theyre defined. (Wealthy, for instance, could be defined as always winning lottery scratch-offs for a Lucky character.)

But I was hasty in my initial reply. To clarify, I meant RPG plot armor that is available for lower or even relatively unpowered/mundane characters and not so much for the demigods, OR is for whatever reason of lesser utility to “higher power” characters.

i mentioned HERO’s Luck. Since HERO is point-based, any character who takes Luck is perforce giving something up.


And yet I can still build an amoral Superman type character that could kill a Batman type PC from orbit, because he couldn’t afford enough Luck to counteract the other PC’s hyperorbital attack capabilities AND still be Batman.

Furthermore, I would also note that when you look at official builds for such disparate character types within officially licensed game systems for Marvel or DC, “luck” mechanics are seldom included for the hyper-talented mortals. IOW, even if the game mechanics allow it, they don’t have it.

As for RPG vs comic- it’s extremely unlikely that a major comic character will die or be permanently altered in a “team-up type title. Such changes are almost exclusively reserved for titles those characters headline, their own little part of the comic company’s shared continuity. Exceptions exist, of course, especially in those big, limited run titles that are meant to change the entire setting, like Crisis on Infinite Earths, Infinity Gauntlet, Secret Wars, and the like.



However, the JLA title- as well as Marvel’s similar Avengers- is pretty infamous for slinging high-power foes and high-stakes plotlines at the team. And yet, the most vulnerable members of the team still come through as unscathed as the ones flying unprotected in naked vacuums and shrugging off direct fire from invaders’ starships. Supes may not need plot armor, but Bats almost certainly does...as would others like Green Arrow or Black Canary.

 

[Umbran]

But I was hasty in my initial reply. To clarify, I meant RPG plot armor that is available for lower or even relatively unpowered/mundane characters and not so much for the demigods, OR is for whatever reason of lesser utility to “higher power” characters.

Well, of course it is of lesser utility. It is the hammer principle - when you have the biggest gorram hammer around, screwdrivers really cease to be useful to you.

And yet I can still build an amoral Superman type character that could kill a Batman type PC from orbit, because he couldn’t afford enough Luck to counteract the other PC’s hyperorbital attack capabilities AND still be Batman.

No, you can't. Because in calling him underpowered and mundane, you have thoroughly under-stated Batman's prowess, and your game system probably isn't built for modeling him properly.

Batman, the Flash, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Superman - they are all gods. Now, approaching this as a D&D/Hero/GURPS atomic action simulation player, and primarily basing action on "the character knows what they player knows", you are going to run into trouble. Why?

Superman is strong, sure. He can fly in space. He's nigh invulnerable. But Batman has the GREATEST ANALYTICAL MIND ON THE PLANET. He has one of the largest fortunes on the planet, and technology not seen in anyone else's hands. Did you model all that properly? Or, were you worried about how hard Batman can punch?

Did you note that Batman really should have hooks into satellite detection systems so that if the Red Son comes to drop a rock on him, Batman has known for an hour and a half? No? Then you have failed to understand Batman. Batman lives in this world 24/7/365, and sleeps for 15 minutes a day, and then only lightly. Your player does not. Batman will always know more than any player at the table. Batman knows more than the GM. If your Batman does not have a power equivalent to, "I know things before anyone expects me to know them", you have not modeled Batman properly.

I submit that any primarily action-resolution based system fails to understand comic books. Task-resolution games give us, in effect, a sort of game-world physics. Comic books do not have consistent physics! Comic books are a media in which Squirrel Girl, with the proportional strength and agility of a squirrel, can defeat Galactus off screen, and have that be satisfying! Because, at their root, comic books aren't about action resolution, so much as they are about conflict resolution. A system like Fate or Cortex+, which is less about what the character can do as a physics model, and is more about who the character is in the fictional world, is a far better match for superhero play.

Furthermore, I would also note that when you look at official builds for such disparate character types within officially licensed game systems for Marvel or DC, “luck” mechanics are seldom included for the hyper-talented mortals. IOW, even if the game mechanics allow it, they don’t have it.

I take it you have little or no experience with the Cortex+ based Marvel Heroic Roleplaying? The game never went anywhere because it failed to come up with a good character generation system. However, if you look at the official characters there... yep, you have the relatively mundane Daredevil and Hawkeye able to work quite successfully alongside Thor and Iron Man, despite what seems like a power differential. The "plot armor" isn't in the form of a special separate luck ability. It is in, for example, how Captain America is basically the best tactical leader on the planet - such that when he's working with a team, anything he tries to do with that team has the same weight in the fiction as getting punched by Thor.

As for RPG vs comic- it’s extremely unlikely that a major comic character will die or be permanently altered in a “team-up type title.

Right. So, why are you modeling them with a game in which, "Are you going to die?" is a mechanical question that you have to worry about? Why aren't you modeling them with a game in which that is a question of fictional positioning and dramatic appropriateness?

You worry about "plot armor" because "plot armor" is a patch to a physics model to make up for its lack of ability to do what the genre asks of it.

This is why GURPS Supers stinks.

 

[billd91]

No, you can't. Because in calling him underpowered and mundane, you have thoroughly under-stated Batman's prowess, and your game system probably isn't built for modeling him properly.

Batman, the Flash, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Superman - they are all gods. Now, approaching this as a D&D/Hero/GURPS atomic action simulation player, and primarily basing action on "the character knows what they player knows", you are going to run into trouble. Why?

Superman is strong, sure. He can fly in space. He's nigh invulnerable. But Batman has the GREATEST ANALYTICAL MIND ON THE PLANET. He has one of the largest fortunes on the planet, and technology not seen in anyone else's hands. Did you model all that properly? Or, were you worried about how hard Batman can punch?

Did you note that Batman really should have hooks into satellite detection systems so that if the Red Son comes to drop a rock on him, Batman has known for an hour and a half? No? Then you have failed to understand Batman. Batman lives in this world 24/7/365, and sleeps for 15 minutes a day, and then only lightly. Your player does not. Batman will always know more than any player at the table. Batman knows more than the GM. If your Batman does not have a power equivalent to, "I know things before anyone expects me to know them", you have not modeled Batman properly.

I submit that any primarily action-resolution based system fails to understand comic books. Task-resolution games give us, in effect, a sort of game-world physics. Comic books do not have consistent physics! Comic books are a media in which Squirrel Girl, with the proportional strength and agility of a squirrel, can defeat Galactus off screen, and have that be satisfying! Because, at their root, comic books aren't about action resolution, so much as they are about conflict resolution. A system like Fate or Cortex+, which is less about what the character can do as a physics model, and is more about who the character is in the fictional world, is a far better match for superhero play.
<snip>
Right. So, why are you modeling them with a game in which, "Are you going to die?" is a mechanical question that you have to worry about? Why aren't you modeling them with a game in which that is a question of fictional positioning and dramatic appropriateness?

You worry about "plot armor" because "plot armor" is a patch to a physics model to make up for its lack of ability to do what the genre asks of it.

Um, no. Not really.
There are plenty of examples in the comics of Batman being completely unable to stop Superman from doing what Superman wants to do. None of his "greatest analytical mind" and wealth can do anything about it... except when the author wants it to.

The reason that we don't have Superman wiping the floor with Batman whenever he wants to, or some random Krypton survivor/Daxamite doing the same after bathing under a yellow sun for a while, is because it wouldn't be genre appropriate* to just haul off and do that kind of thing. And that's pretty much plot armor.

My take on why Marvel Heroic Roleplaying didn't catch the same kind of mindshare as earlier versions of superhero games based on the same licensing is because people want more simulative, action-resolution games than Cortex provides.

*Except in specific genre-subverting examples ranging from The Watchmen to The Boys in which the heroes act in ways that are contrary to the superhero genre

 

[GrahamWills]

Well, no. An RPG that was faithful to those settings would give Batman some kind of plot armour, so that he doesn’t get swatted by some godlike villain that superman is punching to death.

Batman has a huge supply of the GUMSHOE skill Preparedness. Whenever you try anything, he has already prepared a counter for it.

Or, he has a lot of FATE points. When you try anything, he can tag 3 things to stop it happening.

Basically, if you want to mix power levels, I think you need some for of meta- currency or skill, so the mundanes have a way to be effective.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Um, no. Not really.
There are plenty of examples in the comics of Batman being completely unable to stop Superman from doing what Superman wants to do. None of his "greatest analytical mind" and wealth can do anything about it... except when the author wants it to.

Big questions include whose book it's in. Batman in Detective Comics is not the same as Batman in the Justice League.

My take on why Marvel Heroic Roleplaying didn't catch the same kind of mindshare as earlier versions of superhero games based on the same licensing is because people want more simulative, action-resolution games than Cortex provides.

My take is a lot simpler than either of you. Marvel Heroic Roleplaying was published for almost exactly a year and no more. The basic set was published on the 17th of April 2012 and it took off like a house on fire. On the 24th of April 2013 it was announced that MWP wouldn't be continuing with the license and the sale of PDFs and distribution would be ending the very next week.

It took off like a house on fire because it was exactly the Marvel game people wanted to see. Marvel SuperHeroes (FASERIP) was published in 1984, and had supplements coming out continually until at least 1991. That's why it gets so much talk. Marvel SAGA was published in 1998 and was in print until at least 2001, and I don't recall many people ever talking about it. Marvel then produced their own Marvel Universe RPG diceless system, and I don't recall much love for that game.

Marvel Heroic Roleplaying was published for a mere 54 weeks and in that time took off like no RPG I can think of other than D&D. And as for people playing it right now I've just checked RPOL, Dream-Weavers, and Roll 20. A search of each of them finds Marvel Heroic being played on all of them - and I spotted no other Marvel games using published rules.

Also a huge selling point of FASERIP is just how full of meta-mechanics rather than direct simulation it is. Everything from the spending Karma rules to Longshot's luck allowing him to reverse dice to its proto-Fate ladder show that what made FASERIP stand out from its contemporaries were the ways it wasn't a simulation based action-resolution game. People in general want the Marvel Cinematic Universe more than they want Zack Snyder's Watchmen and his Justice League (although some people do want Watchmen and a more simulative, action-resolution approach).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, of course it is of lesser utility. It is the hammer principle - when you have the biggest gorram hammer around, screwdrivers really cease to be useful to you.

No, you can't. Because in calling him underpowered and mundane, you have thoroughly under-stated Batman's prowess, and your game system probably isn't built for modeling him properly.

Batman, the Flash, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Superman - they are all gods. Now, approaching this as a D&D/Hero/GURPS atomic action simulation player, and primarily basing action on "the character knows what they player knows", you are going to run into trouble. Why?

Superman is strong, sure. He can fly in space. He's nigh invulnerable. But Batman has the GREATEST ANALYTICAL MIND ON THE PLANET. He has one of the largest fortunes on the planet, and technology not seen in anyone else's hands. Did you model all that properly? Or, were you worried about how hard Batman can punch?

Did you note that Batman really should have hooks into satellite detection systems so that if the Red Son comes to drop a rock on him, Batman has known for an hour and a half? No? Then you have failed to understand Batman. Batman lives in this world 24/7/365, and sleeps for 15 minutes a day, and then only lightly. Your player does not. Batman will always know more than any player at the table. Batman knows more than the GM. If your Batman does not have a power equivalent to, "I know things before anyone expects me to know them", you have not modeled Batman properly.

I submit that any primarily action-resolution based system fails to understand comic books. Task-resolution games give us, in effect, a sort of game-world physics. Comic books do not have consistent physics! Comic books are a media in which Squirrel Girl, with the proportional strength and agility of a squirrel, can defeat Galactus off screen, and have that be satisfying! Because, at their root, comic books aren't about action resolution, so much as they are about conflict resolution. A system like Fate or Cortex+, which is less about what the character can do as a physics model, and is more about who the character is in the fictional world, is a far better match for superhero play.



I take it you have little or no experience with the Cortex+ based Marvel Heroic Roleplaying? The game never went anywhere because it failed to come up with a good character generation system. However, if you look at the official characters there... yep, you have the relatively mundane Daredevil and Hawkeye able to work quite successfully alongside Thor and Iron Man, despite what seems like a power differential. The "plot armor" isn't in the form of a special separate luck ability. It is in, for example, how Captain America is basically the best tactical leader on the planet - such that when he's working with a team, anything he tries to do with that team has the same weight in the fiction as getting punched by Thor.



Right. So, why are you modeling them with a game in which, "Are you going to die?" is a mechanical question that you have to worry about? Why aren't you modeling them with a game in which that is a question of fictional positioning and dramatic appropriateness?

You worry about "plot armor" because "plot armor" is a patch to a physics model to make up for its lack of ability to do what the genre asks of it.

This is why GURPS Supers stinks.

I haven’t understated Batman at all- the first thing I posted about him was that he has a plan to take down every super being he knows of. In a sense, that’s his “superpower”- being prepared beyond what most mortal beings (and some immortal ones) would ever conceive of being.

The problems for him are that:

1) he doesn’t know all of the various superbeings out there, not being omniscient. For example, does he know the difference between a Kryptonian and a Daxamite? (I’ve been away from comics in general for decades, but I don’t recall him ever encountering on.). Despite their similarities in ability, their vulnerabilities differ.

2) he is perforce dependent on his training and ”wonderful toys”, whereas many of the more powerful characters in the DC Universe are largely self-contained. If Superman decided to nuke Gotham from orbit, he might not be able to activate his anti-Supes plan without some mind-reading tech, and even if he had that, he might not have the ability to activate it while he’s otherwise occupied punching out the Joker for the Nth time.

Given that Supes- depending on the era and the writers- has demonstrated he’s capable of FTL, Bats may NOT have known for “an hour” that he‘d been targeted with a rock from space. New 52 Superman reached Pluto from Earth in 15 seconds, and had flown 45 billion light years to the Earth in 60 days. With only 60 days having passed on Earth, so no time dilation. Which has been calculated to have required a speed above 5 trillion times the speed of light.

A 2018 story had Superman covering some significant distance between him and a guy pulling the trigger on a hostage whose head is virtually in contact with the barrel in- and I quote- an “attosecond” in order to interpose his hand between gun and head. Given that kind of speed, could Bats react- or even design attack/defense systems to react- in time to defend a punch thrown at that speed (or a reasonable fraction thereof, depending on how fast he can accelerate from being motionless) from arm’s length?

Rebirth Superman's new speed feat (AC 1000 spoilers) - Gen. Discussion - Comic Vine

Clark has a nice little speed in the latest issueGallery

comicvine.gamespot.com

(Side note: if you look at those panels, you have to wonder what happened to the building materials he smashed through. Some clearly remained intact as chunks...how fast were they going? Did they vaporize into plasma before impacting anything else?)

Or getting away from Superman, remember when Hal Jordan went rogue? What if, instead of what happened in the books, Hal had gone nutso on his way back from a mission in space, and simply decided to use his ring to create a giant crystalline lens between the sun and earth. Superman might be able to stop GL, as might others of similar capability, but Batman probably lacks tech and facilities significantly beyond the current capabilities of NASA. He would in some way have to figured out that THIS was the mission that would break Hal Jordan’s mind before he left on it, and taken preemptive measures,

Bats is preternaturally good, but he’s NOT an oracle.

As for Cortex+, what you describe is nothing special. There are many systems in which PCs of radically different “combat power levels” operate side-by-side in long running campaigns. HERO for sure. Some would say several editions of D&D are like that.

 

[macd21]

I haven’t understated Batman at all- the first thing I posted about him was that he has a plan to take down every super being he knows of. In a sense, that’s his “superpower”- being prepared beyond what most mortal beings (and some immortal ones) would ever conceive of being.

The problems for him are that:

1) he doesn’t know all of the various superbeings out there, not being omniscient. For example, does he know the difference between a Kryptonian and a Daxamite? (I’ve been away from comics in general for decades, but I don’t recall him ever encountering on.). Despite their similarities in ability, their vulnerabilities differ.

2) he is perforce dependent on his training and ”wonderful toys”, whereas many of the more powerful characters in the DC Universe are largely self-contained.

None of this matters to an RPG designed to emulate comic books. If you’re emulating comic books and want your Batman PC to be as effective as your Superman PC, then you give Batman a meta currency to deal with these problems. He doesn’t need to know all the different types of super beings out there. He just spends a ‘Batpoint’ and has access to something that can stop whatever super being is bothering him this week. Is Superman coming at him at a trillion times the speed of light? Spend a Batpoint.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Which is plot armor of a kind that would probably annoy a lot of players with a Superman type build. Just sayin’.

The saving grace of comics in Hero v Hero combats between grossly mismatched opponents is that the plot has been written in such a way that the demigod won’t be wiling or able to simply turn the talented mortal into a grease stain. See Batman vs Guy Gardner. While numerous Green Lanterns has figured out they could have a low-level force field 24/7 or with an instantaneous creation, Guy was too stupid, too cocky or both and didn’t do that. Bats decked him.

 

[macd21]

Which is plot armor of a kind that would probably annoy a lot of players with a Superman type build. Just sayin’.

As opposed to the Batman-player being annoyed because his character is reduced to being a sidekick?

A lot of games use some version of ‘plot points’ to smooth over power discrepancies. The greater the power discrepancy, the more powerful the plot points need to be to compensate.