D&D 5E (2014) Eberron versus Multiverse

[Arnwolf666]

That's called Mage: the Ascension.

Wow. That’s real life. Multiple competing theories for what the universe is

 

[Seramus]

Wow. That’s real life. Multiple competing theories for what the universe is

Not enough wizards in real life, if you ask me.

 

[Mirtek]

The Dragons of eberron are not like the beasts of FR & Greyhawk...

Dragons of FR & Greyhawk are not beasts. They are highly intelligent beings with a fundamental understanding of magic dwarving all lesser races.

In FR they had once ruled a continent spanning empire until they were weakened in a war of exhaustion with the Giant empire and then finally brought down by the elven kingdoms

 

[tetrasodium]

Dragons of FR & Greyhawk are not beasts. They are highly intelligent beings with a fundamental understanding of magic dwarving all lesser races.

In FR they had once ruled a continent spanning empire until they were weakened in a war of exhaustion with the Giant empire and then finally brought down by the elven kingdoms

it was a comparison & by comparison they are by far a lesser class of beings as a species. In eberron there is a continent dedicated to dragons, they don't break down along the traditional this color/metal in any meaning whosoever.

Speaking of elves though, The Giants of Xendriik were taught magic by The Dragons after the Couatl sacrificed themselves to bind the demon overlords. The resulting empire lasted about 30,000 years, 10,000 of those were the giants fighting off an invasion from the quori/plane of dreams. The giants were so advanced thanks to what The Dragons taught them about magic that their desperate solution was to use blood magic to destroy a moon to fuel the magic shifting the orbit of the entire plane of dreams. Oh yea... Back to elves, somewhere along the line the giants forcibly magebred elves into a slave race out of captured fey & were implied to have created the original creation forges Cannith later found & reverse engineered the on button to build warforge. How does this all tie into Dragons you might ask?... Simple! After ending the invasion by moving a plane's orbit using magics taught by the Dragons, the Dragons were horrified and went to war. At this point, the giants were unquestionably far beyond any mere forest dwelling tribe of hippy elves & the Dragons destroyed not only the entire empire but also cursed the whole continent to ensure nobody would put the pieces back together again.

Sure the dragons of FR & Greyhawk ar powerful individuals, but the Dragons of eberron are so far beyond that that the comparison is much like comparing the vulcans to the vorlons... One is scientifically advanced & in many ways physically/mentally better than you but probably has an answer to your puzzle, the other is so far beyond you that you don't want them solving your war

Sorry I didn't see anything particularly problematic. Did you forget a paragraph or is there a part II? It seems like it needs something about how a different 5-headed dragon would be better or maybe how it would be better if the Big Evil Dragon was something other than a 5-headed dragon (obviously it needs more heads, am I right?)

Metaphorically in one setting this is her role, in another setting her role is this (doesn't matter which is which). As we've seen through this thread where people have trouble grasping how eberron could function if the gods were not real tangible involved facts like in FR & Greyhawk, the confusion becomes problematic in ways that encourage destructive cross pollination. The overlord in question is the evil & green in anyone's heart, Dragons just have the special place of being the only ones with enough power to really concern themselves with that

 

[Hellcow]

A few thoughts on all of this...

Eberron has always been tied to the multiverse. Page 92 of the original Eberron Campaign Setting says "Eberron spins within its own Material Plane, enfolded by three coexistent transitive planes: the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow, just as in the core D&D cosmology (see Chapter 5 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide)." WotC stated long ago that it was officially possible for people to travel to Eberron from other settings by using those transitive planes. You may not have noticed, because it's the default assumption of the setting that no one ever does... just as page 232 of Rising From The Last War establishes that the default assumption of the book is that "contact between the worlds and planes beyond its cosmology is impossible."

The idea is there that it COULD be possible, but it has absolutely ALWAYS been there: from the very beginning, Eberron had its own unique cosmology, but that entire cosmology was still part of the broader system of astral/ethereal/shadow. This simply calls that out more clearly, in part because it allows us to clearly say "This book is based on the assumption that contact with other settings is impossible." Again, the NEW aspect of this is to clarify that if you want it to be an aspect of your campaign, you're changing the default assumptions.

Likewise, the fact that this means that Cyric and Bane exist somewhere in the universe is utterly meaningless in Eberron. This doesn't mean that "Gods definitively exist", because as others have pointed out, the people of Eberron wouldn't identify the "gods" of FR as gods. The Vassals of the Sovereign Host believe that their deities are omniscient and omnipresent. The idea of one of them taking a physical form is pointlessly limiting; that's not a GOD, it's a powerful angel or an overlord. They would view the worship of such beings as a Cult of the Dragon Below; note that the Cults do worship coherent entities such as the overlords and daelkyr. And that's the point: the overlords have always been presented as beings that have the POWER of gods in other settings, but the answer of the masses wasn't to worship them, it was to bind them in spiritual chains. So yes, Rising acknowledges that the multiverse exists (as Eberron always has) and that therefore the gods of other settings exists; this doesn't change the critical facts:

• Those beings have no ability to influence Eberron unless you, the DM, choose to change that.
• As the default assumption is that they cannot and have never influenced the setting, they are absolutely and entirely unknown to the people of the setting.
• Those beings don't qualify as "gods" by the definitions used in Eberron, and the gods worshipped on Eberron do not follow their model. Eberron has always had beings that use the same rules as gods of other settings: those beings are the overlords, and rather than being worshipped, they were imprisoned.

Rising presents a clearer explanation of the principle presented on page 92 of the first Eberron book: Eberron COULD be connected to other settings if you want it to be, but the default assumption is that it's not. Beyond this, one of the core principles of Eberron is that canon is merely a starting point and that YOU decide what's true in your campaign. Ultimately, each DM decides if the Sovereigns are real, and each DM decides if Eberron is connected to the multiverse.

A few other minor points while I'm here...

• The default assumption of Eberron is that spells such as commune don't reach the Sovereigns directly, but rather connect you to a celestial that also believes in the Sovereigns. By default - and again, it's up to the DM to decide the truth - there's no absolute proof for or against the existence of the Sovereigns.
• The statement on Page 228 that "Some sages believe the moons are connected to the planes or are physical extensions of the planes" is 100% talking about the planes of Eberron. The sages have no concept whatsoever that there might be other planes, because the default assumption of the book is that contact with worlds and planes beyond its cosmology is impossible. The idea that the moons are tied to the planes of Eberron isn't new. There are (or were) thirteen moons and thirteen planes, and the giants specifically destroyed the thirteenth moon to sever ties with Dal Quor.

The only thing that I feel IS overstated is the statement that the Progenitors DID create the creatures of Eberron being presented as absolute fact. The rest of the book presents the idea that the Progenitors may have been metaphorical, and that is still the default assumption. The primary point of the section was to concretely say that despite default 5E stating "All orcs are tied to Gruumsh" and "All Elves are children of Corellon" that this does NOT apply to Eberron—that the elves and orcs of Eberron are part of EBERRON and have no ties to the multiverse beyond it. As others have called out, Rising does point out that the drow of Eberron were created by the GIANTS, not by Lolth OR the Progenitors. As with the Sovereigns, it's up to the DM to decide if the Progenitors truly existed, and if so, what they actually were. What's important is—just as has always been the case—Eberron is a part of the multiverse, but it is an isolated part that has its own cosmology and that has no contact with the rest of the Multiverse unless you, the DM, choose to change that.

(Oh, and since it's been a while since I've been here— Hi! I'm Keith Baker, creator of Eberron.)

 

[Salthorae]

(Oh, and since it's been a while since I've been here— Hi! I'm Keith Baker, creator of Eberron.)

Sits back with popcorn to see how long before someone tries to argue with the setting's creator about the setting's cosmology

Seriously though. Great insights and thanks for chiming in!

Any timelines or updates on the new DMs Guild book you could pop into the Exploring Eberron thread and give us?

 

[Urriak Uruk]

(Oh, and since it's been a while since I've been here— Hi! I'm Keith Baker, creator of Eberron.)

I find the irony of the creator of Eberron descending to this forum to lay down his views on the existence of gods in his world, so delicious.

Also thank you so much for taking the time to write that all out!

EDIT: And welcome back, this is your first post in years!

 

[dave2008]

So @Yaarel , do you feel the same way now that Keith has weighed in on your concerns?
At least according to him it wasn't 5e that destroyed Eberron but its creator.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

it was a comparison & by comparison they are by far a lesser class of beings as a species. In eberron there is a continent dedicated to dragons, they don't break down along the traditional this color/metal has any meaning whosoever.

Speaking of elves though, The Giants of Xendriik were taught magic by The Dragons after the Couatl sacrificed themselves to bind the demon overlords. The resulting empire lasted about 30,000 years, 10,000 if those were the giants fighting off an invasion from the quori/plane of dreams. The giants were so advanced thanks to what The Dragons taught them about magic that their desperate solution was to use blood magic to destroy a moon to fuel the magic shifting the orbit of the entire plane of dreams. Oh yea... Back to elves, somewhere along the line the giants forcibly magebred elves into a slave race out of captured fey & were implied to have created the original creation forges Cannith later found & reverse engineered the on button to build warforge. How does this all tie into Dragons you might ask?... Simple! After ending the invasion by moving a plane's orbit using magics taught by the Dragons, the Dragons were horrified and went to war. At this point, the giants were unquestionably far beyond any mere forest dwelling tribe of hippy elves & the Dragons destroyed not only the entire empire but also cursed the whole continent to ensure nobody would put the pieces back together again.

Sure the dragons of FR & Greyhawk ar powerful individuals, but the Dragons of eberron are so far beyond that that the comparison is much like comparing the vulcans to the vorlons... One is scientifically advanced & in many ways physically/mentally better than you but probably has an answer to your puzzle, the other is so far beyond you that you don't want them solving your war


Metaphorically in one setting this is her role, in another setting her role is this (doesn't matter which is which). As we've seen through this thread where people have trouble grasping how eberron could function if the gods were not real tangible involved facts like in FR & Greyhawk, the confusion becomes problematic in ways that encourage destructive cross pollination. The overlord in question is the evil & green in anyone's heart, Dragons just have the special place of being the only ones with enough power to really concern themselves with that

I would argue the attached pdf shows the differences in her role from one setting to another with considerably more accuracy than your example.

 

[Arnwolf666]

Not enough wizards in real life, if you ask me.

Plenty of physicists and theologians